Woolwich-Killing

[Tangled up in Blue]

You wouldn't know rational debate if it opened up the Guardian website and sent you twenty links to an article named 'tips for rational debate'.

As I said, you prefer opinionated put downs to rational debate.:finger2:

 

[farawayshrimper]

As I said, you prefer opinionated put downs to rational debate.:finger2:

They hardly have rational debate in parliament so how are we going to manage it on flipping shrimperzone.

 

[GBJ]

Yup oppression, marginalization and alienation leads to fundamentalism. Assimilation and integration reduces such problems.

We've seen on the news/documentaries plenty of times, there are thousands who are simply unwilling to integrate. I work with the public, in Grays, (which is a VERY diverse population) on a daily basis & I can assure you, 1 week in my job would be an eye-opener for you.

If you treat any society harshly with barbaric behaviour they will fight back against it.

Fail to see how these two have been treated harshly or barbaric? Who knows, maybe in te coming days we'll find out they were persecuted on a daily basis & suddenly snapped. Who knows? Maybe they'll turn out to be dole scroungers, with weak minds that have been manipulated?

These sorts of scenes wouldn't happen if Britain hadn't opened to floodgates to allow all and sundry in to commit these horrific attacks. What is the government doing to stop these extremists living in the uk?

I agree, only I'd add to that, employing a zero tolerance policy against ANY racial/religious incitement, would instantly result in punishment. In the past we've seen Captain Hook openly preaching hate in the streets. Was this nipped in the bud straight away? No. He carried on for years. Look at the poppy burners, that was pathetic. The main man was given a £50 fine (not payable due to him being on benefits). For years, the lefties have said it's best to ignore them, and not give them recognition, because that's what they want. How many cheeks are people willing to turn, until one of their family members/friends are affected by one of these prats?

It wasn't a racially provoked attack for a start and as unpopular and uncalled for the EDL protest was, it is still a right of this country to have that right to protest.

EDL protest = despised & vilified by all and sundry.

Islamic hate protest = well, it's their right to free speech

On what charges? Until they conspire to commit an act, there's not an awful lot the authorities could've done aside from pull them in for questioning.

So, they passed a law, (section 5) to stop people being rowdy when drunk in a public place. They couldn't have done somethig similar with a stricter punishment? Oh, you want death for all British soldiers/police/general public? Here you go, go, have a stay in the steel hotel for a few years

 

[GBJ]

Because we don't have the resources to watch every single person considered a threat all the time.

Genuine question; would you be saying the same if that lad was a relative/friend of yours?

 

[BrettieAngell]

Genuine question; would you be saying the same if that lad was a relative/friend of yours?

I'm saying it because we don't have the resources to put all the people that have/are been under suspicion under constant surveillance. We have stopped some major plots because we had to concentrate our resources on those. Unfortunately these two nutters have slipped under the net because it's a random one off attack that wouldn't have attracted any unwanted attention.

 

[steveo]

The two suspects who were shot, believed to include Michael Adebolajo, were known to security services.

Why weren't they watched more closely?

Or why weren't they shot to death? now the British taxpayer has to pay to keep to British citizens alive and then to keep two British citizens in prison.
****ing ridiculous.

 

[DTS]

You cant deport someone if they are British though.

Definitely should be stamping on anyone who incites hatred though.

Says who? They loose the right to be British when they become a threat to the nations security. Or we can jail them altough from what I hear Muslim gangs control most of the bigger jails anyway so maybe that is no use.

 

[DTS]

I'm saying it because we don't have the resources to put all the people that have/are been under suspicion under constant surveillance. We have stopped some major plots because we had to concentrate our resources on those. Unfortunately these two nutters have slipped under the net because it's a random one off attack that wouldn't have attracted any unwanted attention.

Watched something on TV that basically said but for poor bomb making there would have been another four attacks in the UK since London.

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

As I said, you prefer opinionated put downs to rational debate.:finger2:

My original post was my own opinion, respectfully argued, and made without any attempt to offend anyone on this forum. You've since resorted to portraying me as something that I'm not, and your last clever retort was a smiley flipping me the bird; isn't it about time you grew up old timer and allow the fact that not everybody has to agree with your/The Guardians opinion.

I will not reply again to this nonsense, but will more than happy to take this onto private message if you're calling it on.

 

[DTS]

The two suspects who were shot, believed to include Michael Adebolajo, were known to security services.

Why weren't they watched more closely?

I have a client who is a decent level in the secret service. Without giving to much away he said the sheer number of people of interest that they have to monitor means they can only concentrate on the most high profile targets unless there is a specific threat.

The number of officers has been cut year on year and the sheer number of extremists is growing. There are different levels of course starting at your keyboard warriors and ending up with scum like yesterdays killers but he said basically they watch about 5% of the total threat at anyone point. The only reason they catch people a lot of the time is because of tip offs from members of the public. He also added that this was almost never members of the muslim community giving the tips - more likely to be a nosey neigbour or a eagle eyes shop keeper.

If you have ever seen the documentry on the discovery channel about the attempted plan bombings from London John Reid confirms as much.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Says who? They loose the right to be British when they become a threat to the nations security. Or we can jail them altough from what I hear Muslim gangs control most of the bigger jails anyway so maybe that is no use.

Oooh Dave, that is very dangerous ground. If they were born in Britain and hold British passports as a result, how can they possibly lose the right to be British? Are you suggesting they forfeit the right to live in this land?

Blimey, I'm as right wing as many on here, but I can't see how you can ever legally tell people born here that they have lost the right to live here.

Back to the murder, I expect more reprisals tomorrow in many areas due to the fact that Friday is Muslims' Holy Day.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Oooh Dave, that is very dangerous ground. If they were born in Britain and hold British passports as a result, how can they possibly lose the right to be British? Are you suggesting they forfeit the right to live in this land?

Blimey, I'm as right wing as many on here, but I can't see how you can ever legally tell people born here that they have lost the right to live here.

Back to the murder, I expect more reprisals tomorrow in many areas due to the fact that Friday is Muslims' Holy Day.

They have committed treason. They have forfeited their citizenship and their right to live here. If we had any balls whatsoever, we would ensure that they had forfeited their right to live.

 

[DTS]

And there was me thinking you were patriotic. Personally, I think, with all its problems, this is still a great nation.

All we really have to be proud of these days is the past.

The country has literally been broken. It feels like half the nation in on the take, even in middle class Sussex I see so many people just taking from the state or having kids as they cannot be arsed to work. I go to London and you are lucky to hear an English voice outisde of the square mile. People aspire to get away with doing as little as they can in life and bit by bit all the things that used to make me proud to be English drain away.

We give billions away to countrys in aid that burn our flag while UK citizens die because we cant afford the drugs to keep them. Kids aspire to be gansters or get rich quick rather than knuckle down and build a business or forge a career. The English slowly become a minority as has already happened in a few of our cities includig our capital and as that happens the core English values that built the nation disappear as the left wing stand by applauding.

Sorry to sound doom and gloom but this is the way I feel. Im am doing well in life and I am glad to be English but I dont feel proud of this country the way I did when I was younger and I dont feel that proud of the country I bring my kids into even though my area is nice. Yesterday was another nail in the coffin. Maybe it just comes with getting older - I dont know.

 

[OldBlueLady]

They have committed treason. They have forfeited their citizenship and their right to live here. If we had any balls whatsoever, we would ensure that they had forfeited their right to live.

Fair point Rusty, Treason still exists as a charge I believe, and punishable by death until quite recently. As you well know, I've advocated many times for the right to deprive certain individuals of the right to live, and this is definitely one of those cases.

 

[DTS]

Oooh Dave, that is very dangerous ground. If they were born in Britain and hold British passports as a result, how can they possibly lose the right to be British? Are you suggesting they forfeit the right to live in this land?

Blimey, I'm as right wing as many on here, but I can't see how you can ever legally tell people born here that they have lost the right to live here.

Back to the murder, I expect more reprisals tomorrow in many areas due to the fact that Friday is Muslims' Holy Day.

If I went to many of these peoples country Kay and I starting burning their flag, I started insulting the state or I started calling for the death of that nations soldiers I suspect I would be dead within 24 hours - I doubt I would even make jail.

I am also referring to people like Hamza who are not born here and are barely UK citizens.

For my mind you loose the right to be British if you come here and you commit an act of treason against the state. If you want to say they are British then fine they can go to jail as they come here and bring hate to the nation.

 

[OldBlueLady]

If I went to many of these peoples country Kay and I starting burning their flag, I started insulting the state or I started calling for the death of that nations soldiers I suspect I would be dead within 24 hours - I doubt I would even make jail.

For my mind you loose the right to be British if you come here and you commit an act of treason against the state. If you want to say they are British then fine they can go to jail as they come here and bring hate to the nation.

They've not "come here" though, they've been born here, but as Rusty says, if they can be accused of treason, then so be it.

You're absolutely right about what "we" would be allowed to do in other countries, and I believe that, as a country, we really do have to start making a stand on things, particularly the freedom of speech and human rights of those who preach against our country.

 

[DTS]

They've not "come here" though, they've been born here, but as Rusty says, if they can be accused of treason, then so be it.

You're absolutely right about what "we" would be allowed to do in other countries, and I believe that, as a country, we really do have to start making a stand on things, particularly the freedom of speech and human rights of those who preach against our country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Hamza_al-Masri For example Abu Hamza is not born here. He and his family spend his whole time in the UK causing havoc, organsing terrroism, frauds, sponging of the state.....Tell me one good reason why he deserves to be here?

 

[OldBlueLady]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Hamza_al-Masri For example Abu Hamza is not born here. He and his family spend his whole time in the UK causing havoc, organsing terrroism, frauds, sponging of the state.....Tell me one good reason why he deserves to be here?

Oh I agree 100%! No reason whatsoever, but there will be those who say his "innocent" kids have done nothing wrong. Qatada, Hamza...as far as I'm concerned, if they preach hate against the country which has been good enough to provide them with asylum, board and lodgings then they can f*** off. Time countries like us, the States and Australia toughened up, as Rusty says.

 

[londonblue]

All we really have to be proud of these days is the past.

The country has literally been broken. It feels like half the nation in on the take, even in middle class Sussex I see so many people just taking from the state or having kids as they cannot be arsed to work. I go to London and you are lucky to hear an English voice outisde of the square mile. People aspire to get away with doing as little as they can in life and bit by bit all the things that used to make me proud to be English drain away.

We give billions away to countrys in aid that burn our flag while UK citizens die because we cant afford the drugs to keep them. Kids aspire to be gansters or get rich quick rather than knuckle down and build a business or forge a career. The English slowly become a minority as has already happened in a few of our cities includig our capital and as that happens the core English values that built the nation disappear as the left wing stand by applauding.

Sorry to sound doom and gloom but this is the way I feel. Im am doing well in life and I am glad to be English but I dont feel proud of this country the way I did when I was younger and I dont feel that proud of the country I bring my kids into even though my area is nice. Yesterday was another nail in the coffin. Maybe it just comes with getting older - I dont know.

Not in my opinion.

 

[DTS]

Oh I agree 100%! No reason whatsoever, but there will be those who say his "innocent" kids have done nothing wrong. Qatada, Hamza...as far as I'm concerned, if they preach hate against the country which has been good enough to provide them with asylum, board and lodgings then they can f*** off. Time countries like us, the States and Australia toughened up, as Rusty says.

One of his sons and his step son are themselves involved in there own bombing plot so I think as a family we can say they are undesirables.