The EU Referendum

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Nice to know our football supporters are capable of dealing with the complex issues of the referendum debate. :smile:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...shes-in-marseille_uk_575bd566e4b041514369c5cb

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Good for you Yogi (the honesty and open post), self interest is quite sensible and must affect votes; I am sure my pension/house/holiday/savings etc will take a "hit" for a Brexit: BUT I think that is a shorter (5-10 year) price I can, and the Nation, carry for the longer term good of the UK, and my children and grand children.

The issue or risk of a plummeting pound is an additional factor in my wishing to remain in the EU but it's certainly not one of the prime ones.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

It is difficult to judge the mood when being so far away but the impression from here is that it feels increasingly like one's swimming against the tide. It was always going to end up being about the dirty, squalid little subject of immigration and events over the last year have helped bring the issue more and more to the fore. Cameron seems likely to soon feel the pain for his short term gain (although he claims he won't resign in face of a Brexit vote..........there's an honourable man for you!:winking:) If the prat understood that a week in politics is a long time he knew the risks he was taking, though sadly we're not talking about the pathetic man's reputation but the future of the UK and more importantly, Europe. I thought Radio Five summed things up pretty well this morning in stating that without the leadership inspiring its core Labour supporters to come out and vote remain, the cause is probably lost So, Gordon Brown is being wheeled out today (I originally put George Brown.......that's referendum fatigue for you :smile:)...........when was the last time Gordon inspired anyone? With Corbyn having a difficult enough time persuading himself that the EU is a good thing how is he going to convince Labour supporters, especially as Five Live pointed out, he has no trust in the media. According to them the immigration subject is so toxic with core Labour supporters, that just bringing it up can have a negative effect.
Honestly, I'm at the point of giving up with Britain and starting not to care less if it wants to disappear up its own arsehole. What worries me profoundly is the effect a Brexit vote will have on the EU and particularly on individual member countries. I find myself in the sad situation where, in the event of a Brexit vote, I'm hoping the EU will make the UK's departure complicated, punishing, painful and as disadvantageous as possible, so as to dissuade other countries from taking similar action. Sad........so very sad.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

It is difficult to judge the mood when being so far away but the impression from here is that it feels increasingly like one's swimming against the tide. It was always going to end up being about the dirty, squalid little subject of immigration and events over the last year have helped bring the issue more and more to the fore. Cameron seems likely to soon feel the pain for his short term gain (although he claims he won't resign in face of a Brexit vote..........there's an honourable man for you!:winking:) If the prat understood that a week in politics is a long time he knew the risks he was taking, though sadly we're not talking about the pathetic man's reputation but the future of the UK and more importantly, Europe. I thought Radio Five summed things up pretty well this morning in stating that without the leadership inspiring its core Labour supporters to come out and vote remain, the cause is probably lost So, Gordon Brown is being wheeled out today (I originally put George Brown.......that's referendum fatigue for you :smile:)...........when was the last time Gordon inspired anyone? With Corbyn having a difficult enough time persuading himself that the EU is a good thing how is he going to convince Labour supporters, especially as Five Live pointed out, he has no trust in the media. According to them the immigration subject is so toxic with core Labour supporters, that just bringing it up can have a negative effect.
Honestly, I'm at the point of giving up with Britain and starting not to care less if it wants to disappear up its own arsehole. What worries me profoundly is the effect a Brexit vote will have on the EU and particularly on individual member countries. I find myself in the sad situation where, in the event of a Brexit vote, I'm hoping the EU will make the UK's departure complicated, punishing, painful and as disadvantageous as possible, so as to dissuade other countries from taking similar action. Sad........so very sad.

In Scotland he did a pretty good job,by all accounts.

Having seen George Brown speak,back in the day,I can assure you that Gordon is the better speaker.:winking:

 

[C'mon you Shrimpers]

nil desperandum Yogi. This is so much like the Scottish referendum without I have to say the splitting of communities and families. It really was a nasty campaign and is still being felt to this day.
You're right the key issues are the economy where all the arguments support remain and immigration which is a harder one.
The trouble is immigration is not just from the EU. We have allowed immigration from both the EU and our former colonies by and large. I'm personally relaxed about this. In my soon to end job I've met people from all places east and west. Most are dcotrs and nurses. Virtually all the consultant psychiatrists and registrars I work with are foreign mostly Asian. Some heaven forbid are Muslim. All and I mean all are good people and great at their jobs. Contributing and paying their taxes. Where's the mischief?
For the EU migants 2 TV clips have always stayed in my mind. One was about a small town in Wales. The sole employer was the meat packing plant. The town had a large number of Poles. They were really popular and well integrated and spoke with a Welsh Polish accent that was quite strange. The upshot was that the locals, mainly the youth would not work at the plant as they had to get up early, it was cold not pleasant work and they just could not be arsed. They preferred playing with their video games and collecting their benefits. The other was a few weeks ago. A farmer in Kent produced salad crops. It was seasonal work. He said he had given up advertising at the local JobCentre as they never got any applicants. He now employs Romainians. He was asked what would happen if he could no longer employ them. He said simply he would go out of business.
I think one issue we ignore is that we have a number of people in our society basically white working class who are a bunch of lazy so and sos and there are a lot of people outside who are grafters.
Yogi I have never lost faith that by and large the Brits will do the right thing. The right thing is to vote to remain in the EU.

 

[callan]

In Scotland he did a pretty good job,by all accounts.

Having seen George Brown speak,back in the day,I can assure you that Gordon is the better speaker.:winking:

I listened to his interview and it was a total car crash.

If remain believe Brown will further their cause then they are in complete denial.

 

[C'mon you Shrimpers]

oh and I forgot to say. In the Scottish referendum the No voters kept their heads down as the debate was so vicious and nasty. They then voted quietly to remain in the Union. To a lesser extent this is happening here (I hope). The remainers are keeping their heads down.

 

[Gremlin]

I think one issue we ignore is that we have a number of people in our society basically white working class who are a bunch of lazy so and sos and there are a lot of people outside who are grafters.

Probably not for this thread but it looks as though you & I have rather different definitions of what makes someone "working class".

 

[Gremlin]

He doesn't want to be tarnished by association with the spin and lies Cameron has been trotting out.

Having previously been happy to be associated with the IRA leadership and pro-Hamas groups I must admit that I quite admire this change in direction from JC.

 

[GrumpyBlue]

Back on topic, word on the street is that Brexit has the momentum and James Dyson has come out in support of leaving the EU

Perhaps he will clean up :hilarious:

 

[MK Shrimper]

My 87 yr old mum said that she wouldn't be voting - I had to convince her, for the sake of her grandchildren & great grandchildren to get down the polling station. My dad, if he was still with us, wouldn't be happy at her malaise.

 

[Pubey]

Jesus ****ing christ.

 

[londonblue]

I just saw a headline on the BBC website that said, "Sterling falls on Brexit Uncertainty".

He'll do anything to get a penalty.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Having previously been happy to be associated with the IRA leadership and pro-Hamas groups I must admit that I quite admire this change in direction from JC.

That is a completely different situation - he was entering into discourse with people that were in a state of war and looking for routes to a state of peace.
With Cameron there is no such background - it is two party leaders campaigning for the same outcome but for completely different reasons. He has decided that to share a platform muddies the waters. If we are being honest about this the people that will criticise him for not sharing a platform with Cameron would also criticise him if he did share a platform with Cameron.

 

[Pubey]

Out of interest, if I'm in favour of a European Union but not in favour of THIS European Union in its current format. What do I vote for?

Leave. Holland are also murmuring about a Referendum and no doubt others will follow suit so it can all then be dissolved and re-started, properly this time!

Sorry, just seen this and couldn't let it go (this isn't an OBL dig, I've seen a few people make this argument).

Surely if you want to change an organisation that you can see has benefits (and flaws), then you don't throw your toys out of the pram, and you don't take your ball and storm off home. Instead to stay in the organisation and you try to work things out in a constructive way. If there is discontent with other members, then even better because you work with them and have a stronger position. Norway isn't a member of the EU, but tries to have the benefits it chooses from the EU, and pays through the nose for them (over 50% of our contribution, per capita). Norway also doesn't have many rights to influence things in the EEA.

Whenever people criticise the Shrimper's Trust (again, not a dig at OBL but a semi-relevant analogy), Trust members say "work with us, join up and you can influence change and we're open to new ideas" - the Trust are right, that probably is the best way to try to sort things. Sadly people run out of the Trust and set up SUISA and everything gets a bit daft and hostile and both the Trust/SUISA etc lose their power via strength in numbers. Also it's probably questionable about whether the Trust has changed/improved (:winking:) but that's probably due to a lack of help from new people, rather than a lack of desire from the old-guard.

The idea that we're going to have a pretty strong negotiating position if we leave is, IMO, completely laughable. The EU will want as little to do with us as possible, to avoid other members doing the same and the whole things dissolving.

 

[callan]

Sorry, just seen this and couldn't let it go (this isn't an OBL dig, I've seen a few people make this argument).

Surely if you want to change an organisation that you can see has benefits (and flaws), then you don't throw your toys out of the pram, and you don't take your ball and storm off home. Instead to stay in the organisation and you try to work things out in a constructive way. If there is discontent with other members, then even better because you work with them and have a stronger position. Norway isn't a member of the EU, but tries to have the benefits it chooses from the EU, and pays through the nose for them (over 50% of our contribution, per capita). Norway also doesn't have many rights to influence things in the EEA.

Whenever people criticise the Shrimper's Trust (again, not a dig at OBL but a semi-relevant analogy), Trust members say "work with us, join up and you can influence change and we're open to new ideas" - the Trust are right, that probably is the best way to try to sort things. Sadly people run out of the Trust and set up SUISA and everything gets a bit daft and hostile and both the Trust/SUISA etc lose their power via strength in numbers. Also it's probably questionable about whether the Trust has changed/improved (:winking:) but that's probably due to a lack of help from new people, rather than a lack of desire from the old-guard.

The idea that we're going to have a pretty strong negotiating position if we leave is, IMO, completely laughable. The EU will want as little to do with us as possible, to avoid other members doing the same and the whole things dissolving.

This would all be perfectly plausible...if it weren't for Cameron's negotiations.

We don't want the Euro, nor further political union...how on earth are we supposed to lead or change anything when we are so distanced?

 

[Pubey]

This would all be perfectly plausible...if it weren't for Cameron's negotiations.

We don't want the Euro, nor further political union...how on earth are we supposed to lead anything when we are so distanced?

To me that says more about the political disarray and disenfranchisement within English/British politics and makes me even less keen to flee the support of the EU. David Cameron never wanted anything to do with upsetting the EU but foolishly made the referendum pledge to garner support from the leave campaign, thinking the referendum wouldn't do anything (for what it's worth, I still think it'll be a clear remain victory). Also, grudgingly, I don't think Cameron did that badly with his EU deal. It wasn't great, but it was a decent start.

Shames me to say it but I think in 4 years time we'll be looking back on the 'glory days' of Cameron's reign, and that's probably true whether you're on the left, centre or right. Gideon or Boris, ****ing hell... Corbyn :stunned:

 

[callan]

To me that says more about the political disarray and disenfranchisement within English/British politics and makes me even less keen to flee the support of the EU. David Cameron never wanted anything to do with upsetting the EU but foolishly made the referendum pledge to garner support from the leave campaign, thinking the referendum wouldn't do anything (for what it's worth, I still think it'll be a clear remain victory). Also, grudgingly, I don't think Cameron did that badly with his EU deal. It wasn't great, but it was a decent start.

Shames me to say it but I think in 4 years time we'll be looking back on the 'glory days' of Cameron's reign, and that's probably true whether you're on the left, centre or right. Gideon or Boris, ****ing hell... Corbyn :stunned:

Which is all very well, but doesn't explain to anyone how you expect to lead or change things that you don't want to be part of.

 

[Pubey]

Which is all very well, but doesn't explain to anyone how you expect to lead or change things that you don't want to be part of.

Well there's a difference between lead and change. I think we can influence change by being constructive, gaining allies, and relying on our economic strength. Also, whether we leave or don't, I think the EU is going to have to significantly change and reform - I'd rather be at the table when this happens.

 

[callan]

Well there's a difference between lead and change. I think we can influence change by being constructive, gaining allies, and relying on our economic strength. Also, whether we leave or don't, I think the EU is going to have to significantly change and reform - I'd rather be at the table when this happens.

I would agree that there is a difference between leave or change, however Cameron's position now more than ever is one foot in / one foot out.

I don't doubt that the EU needs to change, even it's most fervent supporters admit this...what they never tell us is how, or when, or in what way.

The changes on the table are not EU wide, but purely for the UK who again have no interest in the EU's shared currency or doctrine of further political integration.