The EU Referendum

[rigsby]

Blue-on-blue "bunfights" are always going to be of more interest to the media, than covering the genuine left-wing arguments for Remain,unfortunately.

That's because there aren't any!!

There never has been any. The left wing politicians have always been anti-EU, because its for big business not for the worker. The average worker today is far worse off than their parents/grandparents were in 1975. Plenty of studies that show how wealth was divided far more equally in the 70's.

Now that Jerry is leader he has forgotten his 40 years of vote out simply because he thinks it will get more support from younger voters. By the way you haven't explained to us why you have changed your political stance?
Is it because you have financially out grown your Marxist ideals?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

That's because there aren't any!!

There never has been any. The left wing politicians have always been anti-EU, because its for big business not for the worker. The average worker today is far worse off than their parents/grandparents were in 1975. Plenty of studies that show how wealth was divided far more equally in the 70's.

Now that Jerry is leader he has forgotten his 40 years of vote out simply because he thinks it will get more support from younger voters. By the way you haven't explained to us why you have changed your political stance?
Is it because you have financially out grown your Marxist ideals?

Ha! I think my earnings (now towards the end of my working life) and my future, rather miserable pension, fully entitle me to my left wing views.:smile:

PS. I've explained previously that though I voted against in 1975, because it was the appropriate left -wing thing to do, my thinking on this subject has changed over the years, (like that of the Labour party's).In my own case it's been mainly down to living and working in mainland Europe for over 30 years.

Do keep up!

 

[rigsby]

Ha! I think my earnings (now towards the end of my working life) and my future, rather miserable pension, fully entitle me to my left wing views.:smile:

PS. I've explained previously that though I voted against in 1975, because it was the appropriate left -wing thing to do, my thinking on this subject has changed over the years, (like that of the Labour party's).In my own case it's been mainly down to living and working in mainland Europe for over 30 years.

Do keep up!

You didn't watch question time last Thursday then. I thought Frank Field came across very well. Where as that annoying little Guardian Journalist needed a slap, even Dimbleby thought so.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You didn't watch question time last Thursday then. I thought Frank Field came across very well. Where as that annoying little Guardian Journalist needed a slap, even Dimbleby thought so.

I did actually.Frank Field,of course,has always been a Labour maverick.As it happens,he's one of about eight Labour MP's who are actively campaigning for Leave.

Always been a quietly spoken, highly intelligent, principled and thoughtful man. Just wrong about the EU.

Can't remember the name of the Guardian journo,though.:cricko:

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Blue-on-blue "bunfights" are always going to be of more interest to the media, than covering the genuine left-wing arguments for Remain,unfortunately.

Looks a bit odd though doesn't it when you have the leaders of the Tory, Lib Dems and the Greens standing side by side and for the main opposition who are supposed to be strongly for remain, you have, erm, Harriet Harman!
It's as if Corbyn is permanently on the outside looking in even on issues of this magnitude - pathetic TBH.

 

[Bielzibubz]

The Andrew Neil Interview - The Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn

I've been around a while and never in my life have I seen a politician squirm, stutter and generally NOT answer any question put to him as much as him :hilarious: If it wasn't so comical I'd be bloody angry.

Being asked directly THREE times to answer an immigration question and seeing him duck, dive and bluff his way through to the next one he couldn't answer was shocking.

As an example. AN quoted directly from an EU directive, shortly to become law, that specifically states and prohibits any freely elected sovereign government from taking control and running a service such as the railways. labours manifesto pledge to re nationalize them CAN'T happen under EU law but all HB could do was keep on saying 'I don't believe that to be true' ......... and then at the end of this specific question in reply to the Railway Union stating it to be so too he said....'well, it's how you interpret the directive' :hilarious:

The man's a buffoon and I thoroughly enjoyed watching him and his 'Remain' argument look completely dumb. if the 'Brexit' camp wanted a cast iron way of convincing the sway voters they should make it compulsory viewing on their rallies :winking:

 

[GBJ]

I do.6 ex-Labour leaders can't be wrong.http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36447926

Including Tony "The Warmongerer" Blair?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Looks a bit odd though doesn't it when you have the leaders of the Tory, Lib Dems and the Greens standing side by side and for the main opposition who are supposed to be strongly for remain, you have, erm, Harriet Harman!
It's as if Corbyn is permanently on the outside looking in even on issues of this magnitude - pathetic TBH.

Why does he need to share a stage with the leaders of other parties? He has stated his position on the EU and though he is asking people to vote Remain his reasoning is very different to Cameron's. He doesn't want to be tarnished by association with the spin and lies Cameron has been trotting out. They are both calling for a Remain vote but won't be backing up each other's arguments so why share a stage? If he had done you would have criticised him for that - let's face it.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I did actually.Frank Field,of course,has always been a Labour maverick.As it happens,he's one of about eight Labour MP's who are actively campaigning for Leave.

Always been a quietly spoken, highly intelligent, principled and thoughtful man. Just wrong about the EU.

Can't remember the name of the Guardian journo,though.:cricko:

Owen Jones - articulate, principled and energetic. I recommend his books 'Chavs' and 'The Establishment' (a point of interest for those on here who are interested in conspiracy theories).

Frank Field spoke very well and with a sense of calm that was missing from the rest of the panel. If the major players in the Referendum took his dignified and informative approach I think that the public would be a lot more engaged and less frustrated by the process (though the Conservatives wouldn't be tearing themselves apart so we'd miss out on that spectacle).

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

The Andrew Neil Interview - The Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn

I've been around a while and never in my life have I seen a politician squirm, stutter and generally NOT answer any question put to him as much as him :hilarious: If it wasn't so comical I'd be bloody angry.

Being asked directly THREE times to answer an immigration question and seeing him duck, dive and bluff his way through to the next one he couldn't answer was shocking.

As an example. AN quoted directly from an EU directive, shortly to become law, that specifically states and prohibits any freely elected sovereign government from taking control and running a service such as the railways. labours manifesto pledge to re nationalize them CAN'T happen under EU law but all HB could do was keep on saying 'I don't believe that to be true' ......... and then at the end of this specific question in reply to the Railway Union stating it to be so too he said....'well, it's how you interpret the directive' :hilarious:

The man's a buffoon and I thoroughly enjoyed watching him and his 'Remain' argument look completely dumb. if the 'Brexit' camp wanted a cast iron way of convincing the sway voters they should make it compulsory viewing on their rallies :winking:

I've only seen a clip of this but did you not think his approach was honest? The question 'how would you control immigration from the EU?' - the answer is that you can't. Cameron STILL stays he will get it down to 100,000 and he has got close to double that in non-EU immigration which he can control. The honest answer is that you can't control immigration from EU contries - there is free movement of workers in the EU - only the Tory manifesto doesn't acknowledge that. But as a country we benefit from the economic boost that immigration brings which is why the government has allowed the immigration that can control to run at a higher rate than the immigration they can't control. From the snippets I heard it didn't seem that Benn was lying to you, which is an improvement on setting limits that the government have with no intention of acting on.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Owen Jones - articulate, principled and energetic. I recommend his books 'Chavs' and 'The Establishment' (a point of interest for those on here who are interested in conspiracy theories).

Frank Field spoke very well and with a sense of calm that was missing from the rest of the panel. If the major players in the Referendum took his dignified and informative approach I think that the public would be a lot more engaged and less frustrated by the process (though the Conservatives wouldn't be tearing themselves apart so we'd miss out on that spectacle).

Ah yes.Owen Jones.Don't really think of him as a Guardian journo, I suppose.I've got (and read) both of his books, thanks.

(Had to be up early Friday am so probably lost this in the old memory bank somewhere).:cricko:

Agree with your comments about FF.

 

[Bielzibubz]

You're right, he didn't lie because he didn't answer anything with a coherent answer. He waffled, he diverted, he deflected, he prevaricated and when that didn't work he just gave glib and childish answers.

And......at last. Someone from the remain camp admits you CANNOT control immigration. Therefor vis a ve it must be uncontrolled, and uncontrolled immigration (from the EU) is something this nation cannot sustain in the short term or long term. And if you think the social structure of this country can then you're deluded and naive.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You're right, he didn't lie because he didn't answer anything with a coherent answer. He waffled, he diverted, he deflected, he prevaricated and when that didn't work he just gave glib and childish answers.

And......at last. Someone from the remain camp admits you CANNOT control immigration. Therefor vis a ve it must be uncontrolled, and uncontrolled immigration (from the EU) is something this nation cannot sustain in the short term or long term. And if you think the social structure of this country can then you're deluded and naive.

Didn't see the programme.Hilary Benn was of course the great hero of the right when he spoke up, from Labour's front bench, for the UK bombing of Syria.How times change.:smile:

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

You're right, he didn't lie because he didn't answer anything with a coherent answer. He waffled, he diverted, he deflected, he prevaricated and when that didn't work he just gave glib and childish answers.

And......at last. Someone from the remain camp admits you CANNOT control immigration. Therefor vis a ve it must be uncontrolled, and uncontrolled immigration (from the EU) is something this nation cannot sustain in the short term or long term. And if you think the social structure of this country can then you're deluded and naive.

It stands to reason that if you have free movement of labour then you do not control immigration. Cameron doesn't understand that - or thinks he can ignore it then just look a bit disappointed when he misses his improbable targets. But the other end of the spectrum is Farage pretending the entire population of Bulgaria will come here. Neither 100,000 nor the entire population of Bulgaria are ever going to be true figures for immigration so the lying needs to stop if we are ever going to have real dialogue on this.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

It stands to reason that if you have free movement of labour then you do not control immigration. Cameron doesn't understand that - or thinks he can ignore it then just look a bit disappointed when he misses his improbable targets. But the other end of the spectrum is Farage pretending the entire population of Bulgaria will come here. Neither 100,000 nor the entire population of Bulgaria are ever going to be true figures for immigration so the lying needs to stop if we are ever going to have real dialogue on this.

It is also of course, highly significant, that the current level of immigration into the UK, is higher from non-EU countries, than it is from the EU itself.

 

[Gremlin]

Owen Jones - articulate, principled and energetic.

It must be a different Owen Jones to the one that was writing about "Lexit" for The Guardian less than 12 months ago then.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/14/left-reject-eu-greece-eurosceptic

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

It must be a different Owen Jones to the one that was writing about "Lexit" for The Guardian less than 12 months ago then.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/14/left-reject-eu-greece-eurosceptic

Fairly common name but no, it's the same person.

 

[rigsby]

deleted post

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

It must be a different Owen Jones to the one that was writing about "Lexit" for The Guardian less than 12 months ago then.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/14/left-reject-eu-greece-eurosceptic

Yeah I know he writes fairly regulary for The Grauniad.It's just that I'm more used to seeing him on the box as a token leftie plugging his books etc.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Why does he need to share a stage with the leaders of other parties? He has stated his position on the EU and though he is asking people to vote Remain his reasoning is very different to Cameron's. He doesn't want to be tarnished by association with the spin and lies Cameron has been trotting out. They are both calling for a Remain vote but won't be backing up each other's arguments so why share a stage? If he had done you would have criticised him for that - let's face it.

You're probably correct in that I would have had something to say if he had shared a stage and argued to remain in a club he has argued against almost all his political life. However, he is the leader of the opposition and his stance is to remain - he is all but invisible and letting the right wing run both camps. The average bloke on the street will be wondering which tory do we least like come the vote because we aren't hearing anything from the opposition parties.
If the vote is leave then he will have to ask himself if he could have done more in his position, unless of course he wants a leave vote all along.