The EU Referendum

[Tangled up in Blue]

This would all be perfectly plausible...if it weren't for Cameron's negotiations.

We don't want the Euro, nor further political union...how on earth are we supposed to lead or change anything when we are so distanced?

Then you should vote remain...

 

[callan]

Then you should vote remain...

Perhaps if you could answer the question that I posed earlier, which was how will the UK lead or change Europe when our interests are not the same, then it may be worth considering...however I am aware that being able to answer a question isn't something your particularly good at. :raspberry:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Perhaps if you could answer the question that I posed earlier, which was how will the UK lead or change Europe when our interests are not the same, then it may be worth considering...however I am aware that being able to answer a question isn't something your particularly good at. :raspberry:

I'd have a look at some of the points Gordon Brown made earlier, for an answer to your question,if I were you.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36513921

 

[callan]

I'd have a look at some of the points Gordon Brown made earlier, for an answer to your question,if I were you.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36513921

It doesn't answer the question at all, but I suspect you already knew that.

Browns intervention is far too late, perhaps he should have listened to peoples concerns when he was in power, delivered the referendum on the Lisbon treaty that was promised, instead he decided to call his voters bigots.

He didn't learn his lesson then, and he hasn't now.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ign-takes-six-point-lead-in-guardianicm-polls


I suggest you look at the latest polls Barna, and comfort yourself with your own words which were I think, that you believed in the innate good sense of the British public :smile:

 

[londonblue]

I would agree that there is a difference between leave or change, however Cameron's position now more than ever is one foot in / one foot out.

I don't doubt that the EU needs to change, even it's most fervent supporters admit this...what they never tell us is how, or when, or in what way.

The changes on the table are not EU wide, but purely for the UK who again have no interest in the EU's shared currency or doctrine of further political integration.

That's not an issue for the EU, that's an issue for us and our choice of leader. The problem is he's easily the best of a very bad bunch.

 

[callan]

That's not an issue for the EU, that's an issue for us and our choice of leader. The problem is he's easily the best of a very bad bunch.

I don't disagree.

I wonder how many supporting remain would prefer full political integration with EU, and to join up with the Euro.

 

[MK Shrimper]

I don't disagree.

I wonder how many supporting remain would prefer full political integration with EU, and to join up with the Euro.

Not many I bet. I'm "in" but that's a step too far.

 

[callan]

Not many I bet. I'm "in" but that's a step too far.

What makes you say that?

Isn't full political integration the whole idea of the project?

Not saying you're wrong just interested to hear different views.

 

[londonblue]

I don't disagree.

I wonder how many supporting remain would prefer full political integration with EU, and to join up with the Euro.

There'll inevitably be some, but that doesn't include me.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

It doesn't answer the question at all, but I suspect you already knew that.

Browns intervention is far too late, perhaps he should have listened to peoples concerns when he was in power, delivered the referendum on the Lisbon treaty that was promised, instead he decided to call his voters bigots.

He didn't learn his lesson then, and he hasn't now.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ign-takes-six-point-lead-in-guardianicm-polls


I suggest you look at the latest polls Barna, and comfort yourself with your own words which were I think, that you believed in the innate good sense of the British public :smile:

I have and I do.Which is why I don't believe the polls.:smile:

 

[MK Shrimper]

What makes you say that?

Isn't full political integration the whole idea of the project?

Not saying you're wrong just interested to hear different views.

I don't believe it is, and I don't think that the most blinkered EU advocate thinks that full political integration would ever be achievable.

 

[Benfleet A1]

I don't believe it is, and I don't think that the most blinkered EU advocate thinks that full political integration would ever be achievable.

More than a few have attempted it before.

 

[Bielzibubz]

I don't believe it is, and I don't think that the most blinkered EU advocate thinks that full political integration would ever be achievable.

I disagree. Full economic and political integration and union. That's been the EU utopian ideal for years and various heads have made no disguise of that fact.

Interesting piece in Barna's favorite rag. 2011 - A bit old but worth a read in this context.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/sep/07/only-full-integration-save-europe

Especially these last two paragraphs, both of which the EU have systematically failed to do. In fact, the second, the freedom of movement, has been it's downfall. Edit: Or should I say one of it's downfalls. there are many ;)


In this sense, the crisis in Europe today is above all political. Further political integration and union can only be built hand in hand, step by step, through a broad and deep engagement of the public. The democratic deficit deriving from the perception that important decisions are taken by unelected Eurocrats in Brussels needs to be filled by political reforms that empower further the European parliament, and by appropriate forms of democratic oversight of legislative and executive decisions.


In short, the greatest task of European leadership today is to re-sell the European idea. They need to remind the public that the absence of war, the freedom of mobility and the rising prosperity they have taken for granted since the end of the cold war has been due to the path toward unity and away from the nationalist demons of the past. To change course now is to put all of that at risk. That is why more European integration, not less, is the only solution.

 

[callan]

I don't believe it is, and I don't think that the most blinkered EU advocate thinks that full political integration would ever be achievable.

Astonishing then isn't it?, that Cameron felt the need to negotiate a protection from the EU against ever closer union.

If you have a shared currency then it is inevitable that full political union can be the only outcome.

Adopting the Euro is no longer a choice for new members, it is a requirement.

Free movement is not a choice, it is a requirement whatever your views on the pro's and cons.

 

[callan]

I have and I do.Which is why I don't believe the polls.:smile:

Ha, was just teasing you.

Look on the bright side though, if Leave do win the day you get rid of Cameron :winking:

 

[Pubey]

Some of us are actually going to have to live with the consequences you coffin-dodging geriatrics.

 

[callan]

Some of us are actually going to have to live with the consequences you coffin-dodging geriatrics.

Yep.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Ha, was just teasing you.

Look on the bright side though, if Leave do win the day you get rid of Cameron :winking:

Too high a price to pay,I'm afraid.:winking:

 

[superblue24]

Some of us are actually going to have to live with the consequences you coffin-dodging geriatrics.

Or perhaps those old enough to remember life both outside and inside the EU are best judged to draw comparisons.

This is our one chance to save ourselves from what is going to become a stronger dictatorship where we are going to lose control of our own destiny.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

]Or perhaps those old enough to remember life both outside and inside the EU are best judged to draw comparisons[/B].

This is our one chance to save ourselves from what is going to become a stronger dictatorship where we are going to lose control of our own destiny.

I'm certainly old enough to remember both scenarios.

Inside the EU is much better for a host of reasons.