The EU Referendum

[amsemp]

Out of interest, if I'm in favour of a European Union but not in favour of THIS European Union in its current format. What do I vote for?

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

When you get past the insults, exaggerations, misinformation and downright lies from both sides, the heart of the argument lies here.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...otes-leave-hammer-blow-peace?CMP=share_btn_fb

It is the reason, if the latest polls are correct, why I am just a little depressed, rather angry and very worried about the outcome on the 23rd. Many Brexit supporters are believing that trade will carry on with the EU much as before and that talk to the contrary is just remain scare tactics. I would just caution them on the degree of anger and frustration which would be felt by the EU if there were a Brexit vote. Divorce would, I'm sure, be complicated, long drawn out, messy and not to the advantage of Britain. Don't underestimate the degree to which the EU would go, as an example to others, to show that departure from the club is neither easy nor beneficial.

 

[rigsby]

I defy anyone to come up with anyone who has said that if we leave the EU no one will trade with us apart from Dyson himself. The debate really has hit a new low. No point making things up. What for me is crucual is it will take a very long time to renegotiate deals we already have which are likely to be the same or worse than we have now.Just look at the deal Norway has. This is likely to be what we get. And the hit this uncertainty will have on the economy will be damaging. The stupid hyperbole on both sides is utterly depressing.

That is the whole basis of the remain camp. Remember 9months ago we were going to lose 5million jobs. At least that figure has gradually come down. Yet still this week Ed Miliband said on the radio Europe could chose to not trade with us.

Good for Sir, James Dyson. For saying exactly what us small business owners have known all along.

 

[C'mon you Shrimpers]

the EU referendum is mirroring the Scottish one. A supposed surge for leave and then a clear victory for stay. Truth was the first casualty. If Scotland left they would be bankrupt. As I've already said I've already voted to remain. No apologies Bielzibub. For every Dyson I give you 10 or more businessmen of the same stature. To leave in the short term will lead to a fall in the stock market, the pound and a rise in unemployment. Worth it. Absolutely not. While I'm on it I retire on Tuesday after 41 years in local government. I work closely with the health service. The simple truth is without immigration the health Service would have collapsed years ago. I also have driven a Nissan for years. Does anyone seriously think that Nissan would have invested in the Sunderland plant if we had not been in the EU. If you think this then you are truly mad. I love this statistic. Nissan in Sunderland which is one of the most productive car plants in the world (hurrah) builds more cars than Italy.
I would never tell anyone how to vote but for all the down side of the EU the only sane vote is Remain.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Out of interest, if I'm in favour of a European Union but not in favour of THIS European Union in its current format. What do I vote for?

Leave. Holland are also murmuring about a Referendum and no doubt others will follow suit so it can all then be dissolved and re-started, properly this time!

 

[rigsby]

When you get past the insults, exaggerations, misinformation and downright lies from both sides, the heart of the argument lies here.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...otes-leave-hammer-blow-peace?CMP=share_btn_fb

It is the reason, if the latest polls are correct, why I am just a little depressed, rather angry and very worried about the outcome on the 23rd. Many Brexit supporters are believing that trade will carry on with the EU much as before and that talk to the contrary is just remain scare tactics. I would just caution them on the degree of anger and frustration which would be felt by the EU if there were a Brexit vote. Divorce would, I'm sure, be complicated, long drawn out, messy and not to the advantage of Britain. Don't underestimate the degree to which the EU would go, as an example to others, to show that departure from the club is neither easy nor beneficial.

You sound like a battered wife. Like all bullies, the EU won't have the balls to do anything against us. Just ask Mr Dyson.

How would the French farmers react if they were told they can't sell any produce to Britain. Probably march on Brussels and burn it down.......Now there's idea:unsure:

 

[Bielzibubz]

Something else for you remainers to dissect and pull apart.

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,

1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy
3/ You don't think it matters.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Something else for you remainers to dissect and pull apart.

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,

1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy
3/ You don't think it matters.

Interesting. Without questioning any of this - I'd say that is we say that these are all things we don't want to happen will us leaving the EU stop such situations from happening? No.
If you wanted to stop such things happening you would need reform of the EU rather than the UK leaving the EU.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

You sound like a battered wife. Like all bullies, the EU won't have the balls to do anything against.

How would the French farmers react if they were told they can't sell any produce to Britain. Probably march on Brussels and burn it down.......Now there's idea:unsure:

OK, you're obviously feeling lucky when you roll the dice in little over two weeks time. I'm just saying, don't underestimate the scorn of a deserted partner..........cutting their nose off to spite their face comes to mind. I'm no economist but I'm sure, as you say, commerce will continue between the UK and the EU............but certainly not with the same preferable advantages. However, if you read the article,the economic argument is the least of my concerns.........I feel this section is so important that I'll repeat it below.


"But my fear is that just as the EU without France or Germany would unravel, so it will without the UK. Why should that bother us? We’d be well out of it by then. But remember the history of this continent. The story of Europe is the story of near-constant war and bloodshed. The 100 years war, the 30 years war, the Spanish wars, the Franco-Prussian wars, the two world wars of the last century: this is what the nations of Europe do to one another – unless they are held together in an arrangement that obliges them to settle their differences around a Brussels conference table, where the most mortal danger is tedium and late-night halitosis.

This is what the European project is about. Not just goods and services and trade and jobs, important as all those things are, and crazy as we would be to jeopardise them. But about life and limb. And make no mistake: if the EU’s 27 member states become Europe’s 27 warring nations, we will not be safely detached, serenely distant across the Channel. We will be drawn in, as we always have been."

Of course there is no denying that a Brexit vote would have advantages. You would get rid of an annoying, weak, vassilating and generally incompetent Prime-Minister (I'd expect Cameron to resign within 48 hours of the vote). His brave epitaph will be the Prime Minister who, kicking and screaming, led Britain out of the EU. The cherry on the cake will be a new Conservative government involving IDS and possibly Farage, led by either Johnson or Gove. Don't know what the future of TTIP in the EU would be? Merkel and Cameron are enthusiasts (probably one of the main reasons Obama wants the UK to stay in the EU) ..........Hollande is less keen. Yet, outside the EU it will be the kind of agreement the new UK government would be falling over themselves to sign up to. A good liberalising of NHS services (those which have not already been effected) will do it wonders. :smile:..........and we won't even mention OGM, pesticides and freedom to frack.......enjoy!

 

[rigsby]

OK, you're obviously feeling lucky when you roll the dice in little over two weeks time. I'm just saying, don't underestimate the scorn of a deserted partner..........cutting their nose off to spite their face comes to mind. I'm no economist but I'm sure, as you say, commerce will continue between the UK and the EU............but certainly not with the same preferable advantages. However, if you read the article,the economic argument is the least of my concerns.........I feel this section is so important that I'll repeat it below.


"But my fear is that just as the EU without France or Germany would unravel, so it will without the UK. Why should that bother us? We’d be well out of it by then. But remember the history of this continent. The story of Europe is the story of near-constant war and bloodshed. The 100 years war, the 30 years war, the Spanish wars, the Franco-Prussian wars, the two world wars of the last century: this is what the nations of Europe do to one another – unless they are held together in an arrangement that obliges them to settle their differences around a Brussels conference table, where the most mortal danger is tedium and late-night halitosis.

This is what the European project is about. Not just goods and services and trade and jobs, important as all those things are, and crazy as we would be to jeopardise them. But about life and limb. And make no mistake: if the EU’s 27 member states become Europe’s 27 warring nations, we will not be safely detached, serenely distant across the Channel. We will be drawn in, as we always have been."

Of course there is no denying that a Brexit vote would have advantages. You would get rid of an annoying, weak, vassilating and generally incompetent Prime-Minister (I'd expect Cameron to resign within 48 hours of the vote). His brave epitaph will be the Prime Minister who, kicking and screaming, led Britain out of the EU. The cherry on the cake will be a new Conservative government involving IDS and possibly Farage, led by either Johnson or Gove. Don't know what the future of TTIP in the EU would be? Merkel and Cameron are enthusiasts (probably one of the main reasons Obama wants the UK to stay in the EU) ..........Hollande is less keen. Yet, outside the EU it will be the kind of agreement the new UK government would be falling over themselves to sign up to. A good liberalising of NHS services (those which have not already been effected) will do it wonders. :smile:..........and we won't even mention OGM, pesticides and freedom to frack.......enjoy!

I'm not rolling the dice in two weeks, I'm taking a calculated business decision. One in which I have 100% confidence in because I am not fooled by project fear. Read the article by Mr Dyson, he knows there is much bigger, but at the moment stifled, world wide trade to be had.

I can see with my own eyes the utter failures of the EU and far from reform the only thing that will happen is more of the same, Turkey, Albania coming in.

As for peace in Europe if anything the EU expansion to the East has put us more at risk than anytime since WW2. Nothing rouses the Russians more than Western Europeans heading into their territory. We are now far more at risk of Right wing extremists getting power in the Eastern Countries than ever, look at Austria and only a blind fool will say it will never happen.

You mention Pesticides. Some wine growers have proved that the EU forces them to use damaging chemicals otherwise you won't get an EU subsidy. The contract for the right companies is worth £billions per year. Just one area of proof that the EU is not only corrupt and unaccountable but in fact damaging for our future.

I get that some people are fearful of what they see as risk. Lets not forget lots of people refused to leave the Titanic because they could not believe it would sink. Now you may wish to stay and listen to the Brussels String Quartet playing soothing music as the SS EU Project slips under the waves but me I would rather be on the first of the life boats (women and children first of course) rather than in a fight to the death over the last floating deck chair as the ship goes down.:winking:

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

"But my fear is that just as the EU without France or Germany would unravel, so it will without the UK. Why should that bother us? We’d be well out of it by then. But remember the history of this continent. The story of Europe is the story of near-constant war and bloodshed. The 100 years war, the 30 years war, the Spanish wars, the Franco-Prussian wars, the two world wars of the last century: this is what the nations of Europe do to one another – unless they are held together in an arrangement that obliges them to settle their differences around a Brussels conference table, where the most mortal danger is tedium and late-night halitosis.

This is what the European project is about. Not just goods and services and trade and jobs, important as all those things are, and crazy as we would be to jeopardise them. But about life and limb. And make no mistake: if the EU’s 27 member states become Europe’s 27 warring nations, we will not be safely detached, serenely distant across the Channel. We will be drawn in, as we always have been."

/QUOTE]

Brexit will make no difference to future peace, any more than inclusion has to the current wars being fought.
It hasn't helped Ukraine - Neither has NATO.
The EU is generally despised through the areas of the Former Yugoslavia;-except as a cash cow.

It isn't doing much in Syria, most of Northern Africa, Afghanistan or the myriad of "minor" conflicts from Nigeria to border disputes in India.

Weak government is more likely to cause an escalation of these and fresh wars AND being IN the EU makes us weaker.

My "money" on the next big conflict is the growing civil unrest in Turkey becoming open fighting with the Kurds finding other uses of US supplied arms, training and captured weaponry; how the EU will deal with that will be interesting but belated and inadequate; certainly not with their EU Military project!

 

[callan]

If that happens, a lot of people will live to regret it.

Thought you were absolutely positive that remain would walk this?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...oris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

bloody keyboard playing up!

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I'm not rolling the dice in two weeks, I'm taking a calculated business decision. One in which I have 100% confidence in because I am not fooled by project fear. Read the article by Mr Dyson, he knows there is much bigger, but at the moment stifled, world wide trade to be had.

I can see with my own eyes the utter failures of the EU and far from reform the only thing that will happen is more of the same, Turkey, Albania coming in.

As for peace in Europe if anything the EU expansion to the East has put us more at risk than anytime since WW2. Nothing rouses the Russians more than Western Europeans heading into their territory. We are now far more at risk of Right wing extremists getting power in the Eastern Countries than ever, look at Austria and only a blind fool will say it will never happen.

You mention Pesticides. Some wine growers have proved that the EU forces them to use damaging chemicals otherwise you won't get an EU subsidy. The contract for the right companies is worth £billions per year. Just one area of proof that the EU is not only corrupt and unaccountable but in fact damaging for our future.

I get that some people are fearful of what they see as risk. Lets not forget lots of people refused to leave the Titanic because they could not believe it would sink. Now you may wish to stay and listen to the Brussels String Quartet playing soothing music as the SS EU Project slips under the waves but me I would rather be on the first of the life boats (women and children first of course) rather than in a fight to the death over the last floating deck chair as the ship goes down.:winking:

With respecr, rolling the dice is exactly what you'll be doing. You have no more idea than me or anyone else of the end result, when the UK eventually disentangles itself from the EU web. The fact you appear exhilerated rather than frightened by the prospect is down to your own personal interpretation of how events will play out. For every Dyson or Bamford you wish to quote there are other industrialists who hold directly opposing views and thus the discussion becomes sterile. In the end the arguments for Brexit or Remain are so complex that it is well beyond the great majority of us to make a calculated decision. IMHO it was never something which should have been offered in a referendum and certainly wouldn't have been if it wasn't for a weak and cornered PM who made his deal with the devil, in order to hang on to power for a little longer. If the polls are anywhere near correct he will pay a heavy price very shortly.
I can never see Turkey entering the EU in the near future and by ''heading into their territory" do you mean Poland, Roumania etc??? I do agree about the frightening rise of extreme parties in Europe and whilst there is obviously some disgruntlement about the EU, I would venture to suggest it has more to do with the economic situation of the western world and people's reaction to continued austerity. All the more reason to hold together than fracturise in face of political parties who offer simple solutions (nationalism) to extraordinarily difficult problems.
Indeed the war against harmful pesticides is far from won but the battle against multinationals is easier fought by a group of nations rather than individual ones...............that is, of course, if you believe there is a battle to be fought.
To continue your nautical analogy. When (or if) the good boat UK sets adrift from Europe............it's just about 3000 miles to the United States...........I'm sure the Captain will know the way, have a good trip. :smile:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Thought you were absolutely positive that remain would walk this?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...oris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html

I was but as Harold Wilson famously said_ "A week is a long time in politcs." So is 13 days.:sad:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

We are now far more at risk of Right wing extremists getting power in the Eastern Countries than ever, look at Austria and only a blind fool will say it will never happen.

Excuse me but I thought the Green candidate narrowly won in Austria?

If the right wing can't win there where will they? :unsure:

 

[Benfleet A1]

Excuse me but I thought the Green candidate narrowly won in Austria?

If the right wing can't win there where will they? :unsure:

Assuming Austrians are more pro far right now? My, you really are good at spotting prejudice everywhere and in everyone. Pity you can't see your own.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Out of interest, if I'm in favour of a European Union but not in favour of THIS European Union in its current format. What do I vote for?

Vote out and if enough of us do then it will have to change or crumble. There is no way on earth that we are going to be allowed to walk away from this. If we vote out then they will bend over backwards to keep us in.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Vote out and if enough of us do then it will have to change or crumble. There is no way on earth that we are going to be allowed to walk away from this. If we vote out then they will bend over backwards to keep us in.

I think you would be wise to vote out only if you want out. If you vote out so they will beg us to stay then you are playing a dangerous game. I can't see any government lasting very long if they don't allow the vote of a referendum being what actually happens.

 

[Benfleet A1]

I think you would be wise to vote out only if you want out. If you vote out so they will beg us to stay then you are playing a dangerous game. I can't see any government lasting very long if they don't allow the vote of a referendum being what actually happens.

That very thing was being talked about on LBC this week. Not only would this govenment crumble, but democracy in this country would effectively come to an end as well. What little trust we have in our MP's would be destroyed overnight.