Should corporal punishishment return?

[OldBlueLady]

No, don't agree there, I'd rather degrade them and make them do horribly demeaning jobs. We pander too much to thugs and young offenders, it's about time they were made to pay for their behaviour rather than sitting in some comfy "hostel" playing all sorts of computer games and eating 3 hot emals a day. Alternatively bring back compulsory national service for young offenders - I'm sure the army could sort them out!

 

[Sussex Shrimper]

Caning kids teaches them that it's OK to use force against those in no position to defend themselves in order to get your way - a bit like US foreign policy, I suppose.

We had a teacher at my school whose pathological hatred of his charges, and the sheer level of blind rage he would show towards them, were legendary. The day caning was legalised once more would probably have been the day he took up kendo.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Caning kids teaches them that it's OK to use force against those in no position to defend themselves in order to get your way - a bit like US foreign policy, I suppose.

We had a teacher at my school whose pathological hatred of his charges, and the sheer level of blind rage he would show towards them, was legendary. The day caning was legalised once more would probably have been the day he took up kendo.

Why does it? As I've said earlier on in this thread, in the natural world, if a cub/kid/calf whatever does wrong in its parents eyes it gets a cuff, so if it's a natural and instinctive thing for an animal, it shouldn't be that we do the opposite and go "oh you poor thing, you've been terribly misunderstood which is why you just threw a brick at that old man's head, come and sit down and have a nice cosy chat and we'll see what counselling we can offer and how much money we can spend in the process"! It's wishy washy namby pambyism. As long as you don't EVER strike in anger (which is when a slap can become a blow or lead to assault) and discipline is dealt with in a clear way there's no problem.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Why does it? As I've said earlier on in this thread, in the natural world, if a cub/kid/calf whatever does wrong in its parents eyes it gets a cuff, so if it's a natural and instinctive thing for an animal, it shouldn't be that we do the opposite and go "oh you poor thing, you've been terribly misunderstood which is why you just threw a brick at that old man's head, come and sit down and have a nice cosy chat and we'll see what counselling we can offer and how much money we can spend in the process"! It's wishy washy namby pambyism. As long as you don't EVER strike in anger (which is when a slap can become a blow or lead to assault) and discipline is dealt with in a clear way there's no problem.

I still believe you can still discipline without violence. If a kid threw a brick at an old man's head, something went wrong years ago and no amount of "cuffing" will change that.

 

[graysblue]

Why does it? As I've said earlier on in this thread, in the natural world, if a cub/kid/calf whatever does wrong in its parents eyes it gets a cuff, so if it's a natural and instinctive thing for an animal, it shouldn't be that we do the opposite and go "oh you poor thing, you've been terribly misunderstood which is why you just threw a brick at that old man's head, come and sit down and have a nice cosy chat and we'll see what counselling we can offer and how much money we can spend in the process"! It's wishy washy namby pambyism. As long as you don't EVER strike in anger (which is when a slap can become a blow or lead to assault) and discipline is dealt with in a clear way there's no problem.

right on sister and i totally agree,

unchecked kids can turn out to be tomorrows thugs,look at the insane and pointless ASBO which is another cop out from loony labour.

 

[Sussex Shrimper]

Why does it? As I've said earlier on in this thread, in the natural world, if a cub/kid/calf whatever does wrong in its parents eyes it gets a cuff, so if it's a natural and instinctive thing for an animal, it shouldn't be that we do the opposite and go "oh you poor thing, you've been terribly misunderstood which is why you just threw a brick at that old man's head, come and sit down and have a nice cosy chat and we'll see what counselling we can offer and how much money we can spend in the process"! It's wishy washy namby pambyism. As long as you don't EVER strike in anger (which is when a slap can become a blow or lead to assault) and discipline is dealt with in a clear way there's no problem.

I'd like to think that we've come at least a little way from reacting through primal, animal instinct, though knife crime statistics might suggest otherwise.

In many ways, corporal punishment seems like an easy way out to me. You hit someone, and then there's no undoing it. On the other hand, if you withdraw privileges or impose chores you then have to show the discipline to ignore tantrums and protests and make the punishment count. It's up to the individual to show that strength.

It's unacceptable for adults to resolve problems with other adults through violence, so why is violence against children OK? That seems to say to me that they're lesser human beings - that's an attitude that contributes no small amount to many of our current social problems, IMO.

Aside from the rights and wrongs, would you really trust all of the nation's educators with the power to use violence against your kids? No matter how thoroughly you screen somebody's past behaviour you can never predict what they might do in future.

 

[Napster]

Why does it? As I've said earlier on in this thread, in the natural world, if a cub/kid/calf whatever does wrong in its parents eyes it gets a cuff, so if it's a natural and instinctive thing for an animal, it shouldn't be that we do the opposite and go "oh you poor thing, you've been terribly misunderstood which is why you just threw a brick at that old man's head, come and sit down and have a nice cosy chat and we'll see what counselling we can offer and how much money we can spend in the process"! It's wishy washy namby pambyism. As long as you don't EVER strike in anger (which is when a slap can become a blow or lead to assault) and discipline is dealt with in a clear way there's no problem.

You didn't read the article I posted. Nature is a terrible beast.

Is cannibalism fine because polar bears do it? Is killing your brother or sister fine because nestlings of many bird species do it? Is murdering your children fine because mice sometimes eat their own pups? Is paedophilia fine because bonobo adults have sex with juveniles?

Just about every kind of behaviour that most of us regard as "unnatural" turns out to be perfectly natural in some nook or cranny of the animal kingdom. No one can plausibly argue that this justifies humans behaving in the same way.

You can't justify actions based on other species. Man is unique.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Naps if I could +rep you I would.

 

[graysblue]

I'd like to think that we've come at least a little way from reacting through primal, animal instinct, though knife crime statistics might suggest otherwise.

In many ways, corporal punishment seems like an easy way out to me. You hit someone, and then there's no undoing it. On the other hand, if you withdraw privileges or impose chores you then have to show the discipline to ignore tantrums and protests and make the punishment count. It's up to the individual to show that strength.

It's unacceptable for adults to resolve problems with other adults through violence, so why is violence against children OK? That seems to say to me that they're lesser human beings - that's an attitude that contributes no small amount to many of our current social problems, IMO.

Aside from the rights and wrongs, would you really trust all of the nation's educators with the power to use violence against your kids? No matter how thoroughly you screen somebody's past behaviour you can never predict what they might do in future.

in fairness mate,

the cane never hurt no one in the long term,wonder how many on here recieved the cane and then went onto live a decent life.

 

[OldBlueLady]

I still believe you can still discipline without violence. If a kid threw a brick at an old man's head, something went wrong years ago and no amount of "cuffing" will change that.

Paul, I see kids who I've known since they were 3, I've known their families, their backgrounds, worked with them through pre-school, infants and juniors, known their potential. The minute they get in a set of friends, no matter what their upbringing, they will try and conform to their set's "type", everything they've learnt about the "right thing to do" goes out the window. Obviously there are different levels of this, sharing a cigarette or can of beer is completely different to say, committing assault. But my point is here, that you can tell right from an early age which kids are undisciplined and it is invariably these kids that go on to commit the worse types of offences.

We had a boy come to our junior school in yr 6 5 years ago, excluded permanently from his previous one for hitting the Headteacher. He came to us with a less than ideal background but gave us little trouble because we have very strict codes of behaviour drawn up the children themselves and the peer pressure made him behave in line with what was expected. The minute he got to senior school, he had nothing more to do with any of those previously having a good influence on him, and by yr 9 had been permanently excluded for throwing a lighted firework into the window of one of the language block's classrooms. Similarly, my daughter's year has just taken a girl excluded from her last school for setting fire to the science lab. Predictably she has attracted the worst type of friends, and has assaulted one of my daughter's friends, for which my daughter had to give a police statment. Two examples of kids who've had no discipline and been allowed to get their own way and manipulate adults along the way.

 

[londonblue]

Why does it? As I've said earlier on in this thread, in the natural world, if a cub/kid/calf whatever does wrong in its parents eyes it gets a cuff, so if it's a natural and instinctive thing for an animal, it shouldn't be that we do the opposite and go "oh you poor thing, you've been terribly misunderstood which is why you just threw a brick at that old man's head, come and sit down and have a nice cosy chat and we'll see what counselling we can offer and how much money we can spend in the process"! It's wishy washy namby pambyism. As long as you don't EVER strike in anger (which is when a slap can become a blow or lead to assault) and discipline is dealt with in a clear way there's no problem.

Personally I thought the human race had progressed beyond animals.

No-one is going to hit my kids. I'll bring them up to be well behaved in the same manner that my sister does with her kids. They have never been hit, but they are extremely well behaved, and certainly no worse than myself when I was a kid, and I was smacked. The reason is because her and her husband deal with things very well. Their children are often disciplined, but in creative ways, and are made to understand the consequences of their actions. Yes, it's more time consuming, but corporal punishment is just the lazy way of disciplining children.

Given that that is the way I (and my wife) have decided to bring up our children, there is absolutely no way I will allow them to attend a school that employs teachers that can't control a class without the threat of violence. I don't want my kids to be scared of their teachers. I want them to repsect their teachers, and that is why I will back the school if they discipline my kids (in a non-violent manner) if they do something wrong.

I have said a couple of times on this thread, the issue is that kids feel immune to punishment because too many times parents side with their children regardless of what they have done. Teachers should be allowed to put kids in detention and such like without the parents interfering.

Moreover, where do you draw the line? What do you do with the kid that keeps offending, and the cane doesn't work? Do you hit him harder next time? What about the time after that? Do you stop when you draw blood, or is that just the start? In my opinion there is simply no place in a civilised society for violence of any kind.

 

[OldBlueLady]

You didn't read the article I posted. Nature is a terrible beast.

Is cannibalism fine because polar bears do it? Is killing your brother or sister fine because nestlings of many bird species do it? Is murdering your children fine because mice sometimes eat their own pups? Is paedophilia fine because bonobo adults have sex with juveniles?

Just about every kind of behaviour that most of us regard as "unnatural" turns out to be perfectly natural in some nook or cranny of the animal kingdom. No one can plausibly argue that this justifies humans behaving in the same way.

You can't justify actions based on other species. Man is unique.

But nature is also nurturing, all the examples you have given are extremes, my example is about teaching the youngster the way the parent expects it to towards them, and is part and parcel of everyday life, just as natural as suckling.

 

[Cricko]

It is kind of middle ground for me ..whilst I respect posters that say that respect gains respect, I feel that only tends to happen at a later age with kids these days..Most have no respect whatsoever for there elders or parents..this will sound stupid maybe but I respected the Police,my teachers and my parents when I was young for fear of getting told off/the cane/or reprimanded severely by my parents, which led to some form of loss of pocket money or otherwise.

Films, games and the media hype of so called superstar's has not helped the kids of today and the distinct lack of anything to do outside there own environment..(we used to have youth clubs, and it was considered to play safe in the park) has not helped...The world has gone mad regarding kids and what is safe and what is not. Parents drive there kids to school these day's, what is that all about?....Kids will only learn from there mistakes as we all do ...I would say bring some form of making them realise respect. I do not blame the kids of today, they have known no different....but we are going to be in a very sad state if this road continues as it is at the moment.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Personally I thought the human race had progressed beyond animals.

No-one is going to hit my kids. I'll bring them up to be well behaved in the same manner that my sister does with her kids. They have never been hit, but they are extremely well behaved, and certainly no worse than myself when I was a kid, and I was smacked. The reason is because her and her husband deal with things very well. Their children are often disciplined, but in creative ways, and are made to understand the consequences of their actions. Yes, it's more time consuming, but corporal punishment is just the lazy way of disciplining children.

Given that that is the way I (and my wife) have decided to bring up our children, there is absolutely no way I will allow them to attend a school that employs teachers that can't control a class without the threat of violence. I don't want my kids to be scared of their teachers. I want them to repsect their teachers, and that is why I will back the school if they discipline my kids (in a non-violent manner) if they do something wrong.

I have said a couple of times on this thread, the issue is that kids feel immune to punishment because too many times parents side with their children regardless of what they have done. Teachers should be allowed to put kids in detention and such like without the parents interfering.

Moreover, where do you draw the line? What do you do with the kid that keeps offending, and the cane doesn't work? Do you hit him harder next time? What about the time after that? Do you stop when you draw blood, or is that just the start? In my opinion there is simply no place in a civilised society for violence of any kind.

That's commendable if they've managed to do that, but for the vast majority of children it just doesn't work purely because the parents are not ABLE to stick to this.

And it's precisely because power has been taken away from teachers that parents are much more vocal about the rights and wrongs of putting their little precious one in detention or excluding them, and why so many schools have to put in security cameras to give the teachers some form of protection. Only last week at a parents' evening, one of our teachers was int ears as a result of a nasty verbal assault from a mother of a child in her class - and this was someone who had recently been employed in the school and was part of the PTA!

And as for drawing the line, exclusion, and FORCE the parents to do as they're supposed to and make sure the child does the required schooling at home.

 

[graysblue]

surely if every kid and parent knew and understood school rules and any SERIOUS breach of said rules would result in the cane,whats the problem.

i bet you,

any decent school where parents are begging to get their kids into adopted the above i wager not one parent would complain.

 

[Sussex Shrimper]

That's commendable if they've managed to do that, but for the vast majority of children it just doesn't work purely because the parents are not ABLE to stick to this.

And it's precisely because power has been taken away from teachers that parents are much more vocal about the rights and wrongs of putting their little precious one in detention or excluding them, and why so many schools have to put in security cameras to give the teachers some form of protection. Only last week at a parents' evening, one of our teachers was int ears as a result of a nasty verbal assault from a mother of a child in her class - and this was someone who had recently been employed in the school and was part of the PTA!

And as for drawing the line, exclusion, and FORCE the parents to do as they're supposed to and make sure the child does the required schooling at home.

There's the crux of the matter for me - and it doesn't make the easy solution the right one.

You might succeed in making somebody fear you through violence, but I'd be amazed if it garnered respect. I would have thought that the goal of a successful upbringing was to teach kids about rights and responsibilities, and the advocation of violence over the withdrawal of privileges makes no sense to me to that end. The animal kingdom might resort to violence to control its youth, but then it's hardly known for the ability of its adults to resolve their disputes through diplomacy.

 

[Perth Bambi]

That's commendable if they've managed to do that, but for the vast majority of children it just doesn't work purely because the parents are not ABLE to stick to this.

.

I disagree, I think the majority of cases this does work, and it is the minority that it wont work for. I have voted for yes in the poll, but don't really think it is the best way of going about things. (but then I am not really sure what is)
In the limited experience I have had with kids they have generally been well behaved, polite and respectful, however I have been lucky enough to do my physio placements in higher socio-economic areas.
I appreciate I do not have kids and I would probably feel very different if I thought someone was going to give them a slap, I have been looking at it more from the point of view if I was at school and i broke the rules (assuming I knew the punishment was the cane) then I would deserve it as I shouldn't have broken the rules.

I see a lot of people have been talking about how they have bought their kids up well and they are respectful and well behaved which is great. People have also made the point about how a lot of the young scallywags behaviour is down to their parents, which is also true in some cases but not all. I would imagine most of the people on the board haven't had to bring their kids up on an inner-city council estates where I would think bringing a child up to be respectul is slightly more difficult then in a nicer area like Southend.
I guess whenever I think about this I create more questions in my head then answers to the original question.

 

[Napster]

But nature is also nurturing, all the examples you have given are extremes, my example is about teaching the youngster the way the parent expects it to towards them, and is part and parcel of everyday life, just as natural as suckling.

Sounds to me like you're just washing over the concrete examples I have given from a reliable source to show that the nature of animals is quite un-natural for humans.

Nature isn't about nurture. Hence the nature versus nurture debate.

 

[Einstein]

Sorry if I'm "politically correct" but if anyone hit my kids I'd hunt them down. And that includes teachers.

Unfortunately my damn internet went down at work all afternoon so I'm having to catch up on this thread!

However, I cannot believe no-one has picked up on this point. You are going to "hunt them down". Exactly what are you planning to do when you "hunt them down"? To me, that sounds like a violent threat! :D

 

[Aberdeen Shrimper]

Unfortunately my damn internet went down at work all afternoon so I'm having to catch up on this thread!

However, I cannot believe no-one has picked up on this point. You are going to "hunt them down". Exactly what are you planning to do when you "hunt them down"? To me, that sounds like a violent threat! :D

Paul would then teach them respect by making them do lines!!!