Should corporal punishishment return?

[Vange Shrimper]

I have kids, one in Year 11 tell me to **** off whenever they want. As soon as I report it, **** all is done, so they know they can get away with it.

We can't shout at the kids, and punishment today for 2 year 8 classes, was to send them outside in the cold for 20 mins due to their behaviour. It wasn't until the head of technology came out and gave her a piece of her mind that they behaved themselves for the rest of the lesson.

11 out of 28 kids just in one class are now on ICT report for 2 weeks. I think it would be a good idea if we were a lot stricter with the kids because they know if we arent they will get away with things. Being threatened with the cane would scare the **** out of them and they will behave themselves then!

 

[londonblue]

surely if every kid and parent knew and understood school rules and any SERIOUS breach of said rules would result in the cane,whats the problem.

But why the cane? Surely if every kid and parent knew and understood school rules and any serious breach of said rules would result in a punishment, what's the problem?

i bet you,

any decent school where parents are begging to get their kids into adopted the above i wager not one parent would complain.

See my post above.

 

[londonblue]

I have kids, one in Year 11 tell me to **** off whenever they want. As soon as I report it, **** all is done, so they know they can get away with it.

We can't shout at the kids, and punishment today for 2 year 8 classes, was to send them outside in the cold for 20 mins due to their behaviour. It wasn't until the head of technology came out and gave her a piece of her mind that they behaved themselves for the rest of the lesson.

11 out of 28 kids just in one class are now on ICT report for 2 weeks. I think it would be a good idea if we were a lot stricter with the kids because they know if we arent they will get away with things. Being threatened with the cane would scare the **** out of them and they will behave themselves then!

No they wouldn't, otherwise the cane would never have been used. Kids will just hope harder that they don't get caught.

 

[osymandus]

Im with Naps and LondonBlue on this . Plus reflecting on other large primates (ok with the exceptions of Chimps as some of them can be cannablistic and v unpleasent) . Its normally the threat or making ones self bigger and more imposing (the equivalent of shouting and posuturing really ) that helps keep the kiddies in linr (Gorillias being a good example of this). In away those in authourity have to learn how to exoress themsleves in away that makes the children very unsure of what might happen.

From my own schooling there was a scary bugger English teacher who could reduce anyone to tears (and often did ) by posturing and what he said . Never once was he attacked and by the time we were 15-16 most people were his height or taller .

Whacking has its place but its too easy a solution .

 

[OldBlueLady]

Unfortunately my damn internet went down at work all afternoon so I'm having to catch up on this thread!

However, I cannot believe no-one has picked up on this point. You are going to "hunt them down". Exactly what are you planning to do when you "hunt them down"? To me, that sounds like a violent threat! :D

Think he might be planning to act on his animal instinct to exact his revenge!

I fully appreciate that in a perfect world where families have two parents fully involved in bringing up their children, it would be fantastic and highly appropriate for them to be able to use discipline in a non physical way. However, I believe it is more common nowadays for children not to be brought up in a traditional family unit, and invariably the main (and in some cases, only) carer is working long hours and the child care is passed over to child minders/kids' clubs.

Now, I've worked in a kids' club, most of those kids are desperate for a bit of attention which they often don't get at home because of their home situation. In many cases the kids work out that the only way they get attention is by behaving badly, at home, in kids' club, in school. So their negative behaviour is being rewarded by adult attention, it doesn't matter that it's not attention in a good way, they are still getting attention. This is basic psychology - reward the good behaviour, not the bad - and the one that is the biggest hurdle to overcome because once you're on a cycle of bad behaviour it's incredibly hard to get off.

Of course I am not advocating that teachers or police officers or anyone else for that matter, starts smacking children at will. What I am firmly in favour of is corporal punishment being used in schools as a kind of ultimate deterrent. That gives control firmly back to the Head Teachers, and believe me, once you've stood outside the Head's office for half an hour waiting for that punishment you're much less likely to transgress again. I'm also not saying that this is an appropriate way of treating students with conditions like ADHD or Asperbergers, because it isn't. Each case on its own merits and the support of the parents for the school to be able to administer punishment in an age appropriate fashion, rather than being obstructive as so many are now.

 

[steveo]

Perhaps even more humiliating than the can was won of our games teachers who would "slipper" you with your own shoe in front of the rest of the class.

Back to kids, I smacked mine if they were being naughty same as my dad did to me. However, i would NEVER just lash out at them or whack them. They would have to stand and hold out their hand. They were often getting really upset before I smacked them. Seemed to do the trick and a light tap was all that was needed in the end.

I think Vange Shrimper is probably best qualified to answer the original question.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Perhaps even more humiliating than the can was won of our games teachers who would "slipper" you with your own shoe in front of the rest of the class.

Back to kids, I smacked mine if they were being naughty same as my dad did to me. However, i would NEVER just lash out at them or whack them. They would have to stand and hold out their hand. They were often getting really upset before I smacked them. Seemed to do the trick and a light tap was all that was needed in the end.

I think Vange Shrimper is probably best qualified to answer the original question.

Exactly the same for me, my dad used to make me hold my hand out and you just knew it was going to sting like mad. But as I also said earlier, you don't do it in anger, and I never enjoyed smacking my kids but sometimes it was necessary.

 

[londonblue]

Perhaps even more humiliating than the can was won of our games teachers who would "slipper" you with your own shoe in front of the rest of the class.

Back to kids, I smacked mine if they were being naughty same as my dad did to me. However, i would NEVER just lash out at them or whack them. They would have to stand and hold out their hand. They were often getting really upset before I smacked them. Seemed to do the trick and a light tap was all that was needed in the end.

I think Vange Shrimper is probably best qualified to answer the original question.

If that's the case, you didn't really need to hit them then did you?

 

[steveo]

you don't do it in anger, and I never enjoyed smacking my kids but sometimes it was necessary.

Yep that seems to be the key. I used to hate watching parents just turn round and slap their kids when they were out shopping. Probably did no good at all.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Yep that seems to be the key. I used to hate watching parents just turn round and slap their kids when they were out shopping. Probably did no good at all.

And nor does screaming at them when they're already upset, but you also see plenty of that going on.

Having worked with children for the last 10 years, and having studied child psychology as part of my NVQ I do understand what those defending are getting at. Christ, I know more about positive parenting than probably most of you do on here! I also know it has its place but that doesn't mean I have to agree that it is necessarily right on all counts.

With kids, it's all about consistency, setting clear boundaries and expectations and making sure they understand the consequences if they over step the mark. You're not going to wallop a 3 year old because they've drawn all over your walls, but you are going to sit them down and make sure they know why the behaviour is not acceptable and remove the pens/crayons from their control. An 11 year old bully has hold of your kid as you happen to go past in the car, what you going to do, get out and grab them by the scruff of the neck? That IS assault.

 

[Moridin]

There's the crux of the matter for me - and it doesn't make the easy solution the right one.

You might succeed in making somebody fear you through violence, but I'd be amazed if it garnered respect. I would have thought that the goal of a successful upbringing was to teach kids about rights and responsibilities, and the advocation of violence over the withdrawal of privileges makes no sense to me to that end. The animal kingdom might resort to violence to control its youth, but then it's hardly known for the ability of its adults to resolve their disputes through diplomacy.

That is exactly why things like the Cane must never be brought back. Violence begets violence.

The kid will just want to get bigger and stronger, until he/she is in a position to give the teacher one back.

In my experience voilence only breeds fear and hate, not something I feel that should be drummed into the youth of today, history is already littered with too many examples of that.

As for success at schools, I recently posted and excert from an article in the Times about a school in Aylesbury that has acheived some fantastic successes through hard work, despite being in one of the most deprived areas of the country. It had a diverse ethnic mix and a minority of students had English as a first language. Think of the barriers the teachers must of had to overcome to achieve an outstanding rating in the Osfted report. What they did not do was belt the kids.

Failings are down to bad management and lack of ideas, lack of support from local authorities and the Police, certainly not the lack of violence.

 

[Andyhsufc]

Having only finished school last year, imo there is only one reason for poor discipline standards; teachers that can't "teach" (and by that i mean not subject knowledge but actually ability to communicate to and control a class of 25 teenagers)

 

[OldBlueLady]

That is exactly why things like the Cane must never be brought back. Violence begets violence.

The kid will just want to get bigger and stronger, until he/she is in a position to give the teacher one back.

In my experience voilence only breeds fear and hate, not something I feel that should be drummed into the youth of today, history is already littered with too many examples of that.

As for success at schools, I recently posted and excert from an article in the Times about a school in Aylesbury that has acheived some fantastic successes through hard work, despite being in one of the most deprived areas of the country. It had a diverse ethnic mix and a minority of students had English as a first language. Think of the barriers the teachers must of had to overcome to achieve an outstanding rating in the Osfted report. What they did not do was belt the kids.

Failings are down to bad management and lack of ideas, lack of support from local authorities and the Police, certainly not the lack of violence.

Of course they didn't because that's against the law as it stands.

I apologise for speaking at such length and so passionately on this subject but I work with kids every day, as do others on here, but in my case because you're on a one to one basis you become party to some horrendous details. Some of the case studies used in training are really painful to consider - abuse takes many forms, and there are more children suffering from neglect because of poor parenting in our schools than are suffering from any other form of abuse.

Bad behaviour is a result of poor parenting, which is often a result of poor parenting one generation back - funnily enough which coincides pretty much with the interference of the do gooders and wishy washies.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Having only finished school last year, imo there is only one reason for poor discipline standards; teachers that can't "teach" (and by that i mean not subject knowledge but actually ability to communicate to and control a class of 25 teenagers)

And why can't they? Because there is invariably a group of students who are intent on causing as much disruption as they can and who prevent the teacher from teaching. Teachers are leaving the profession in droves, there will be a huge crisis in teaching before too long.

 

[Andyhsufc]

And why can't they? Because there is invariably a group of students who are intent on causing as much disruption as they can and who prevent the teacher from teaching. Teachers are leaving the profession in droves, there will be a huge crisis in teaching before too long.

Some teachers can though. Last year, for example, we had an English lesson followed by a physics lesson and the class was exactly the same. In English, everyone was well behaved and there were no problems at all. Get to the physics lesson and the lesson was just a muck around with the teacher having no control of the class at all.

 

[OldBlueLady]

That's down to personality and respect again though, the students obviously had respect for the English teacher but not the physics one.

 

[Andyhsufc]

That's down to personality and respect again though, the students obviously had respect for the English teacher but not the physics one.

but why did we have more respect for the English teacher. i mean the physics one was a Dr so we should have had more respect for him really. All comes down to the fact that we knew the consequences of mucking around in the english lesson (and it wasnt being barbaric and hitting a minor with a wooden stick)

 

[Moridin]

Of course they didn't because that's against the law as it stands.

I apologise for speaking at such length and so passionately on this subject but I work with kids every day, as do others on here, but in my case because you're on a one to one basis you become party to some horrendous details. Some of the case studies used in training are really painful to consider - abuse takes many forms, and there are more children suffering from neglect because of poor parenting in our schools than are suffering from any other form of abuse.

Bad behaviour is a result of poor parenting, which is often a result of poor parenting one generation back - funnily enough which coincides pretty much with the interference of the do gooders and wishy washies.

Quality post as always OBL, I dearly do hope it stays against the law as well.

100% agree on the poor parenting argument. I work as a Housing Officer on one of the better, it has to be said, estates in Leicester, and look after approx. 500 Housing Association tenants.

Every day of my working life I have to deal with problems caused by unruly kids, I work with local schools, the local Bobby and Social Services, and one thing is a constant. Parents telling me 'It's not my fault...'

I don't agree with your blame placing on the wishy washies (being one myself obviously :D) but there seems to be a whole generation of claims direct it's not my fault types that cannot be bothered to take any responsibility for their own actions who are always the parents of kids with 'issues' shall we say!

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

I would be interested to know how many of the 32 voters thus far, particularly in the 'no' group have kids? When I first knew I was going to be a father, I was sure that I wouldn't smack my kids, but it just doesn't work in practice. I'm not talking a right good kicking, but a little slap on the butt when they're little does no harm at all. And I would be appalled to learn that one of my children had taken a beating at school by some sadistic *******, but I would not give them a moment of sympathy for a quick swipe with the cane if they were violent or disrespectful. A painful lesson is far more easily remembered.

 

[steveo]

If that's the case, you didn't really need to hit them then did you?

Which is why I said:

and a light tap was all that was needed in the end

And if bad behavior at school was rewarded with the cane, I wouldnt have objected to he headmaster caning my kids.