Brexit negotiations thread

[Yorkshire Blue]

Perhaps what Yorkie is driving at, is an EFTA type deal where contributions are made to the functioning of the internal market.

Or a Swiss type deal.

If people are kicking up a fuss over paying to settle our debts then the row over future payments is going to be big time. But without that type of deal (a Canada type deal doesn't cut it) our services based economy is screwed.

I appreciate that I'm repeating stuff that I said before the referendum but this stuff needed to have been sorted before we served the Article 50 notice. To go into a time limited negotiation not knowing what you want or the impact of it (David Davis you lying ****) is negligent beyond belief.

This is going to be studied for centuries as an example of how not to do things.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Or a Swiss type deal.

If people are kicking up a fuss over paying to settle our debts then the row over future payments is going to be big time. But without that type of deal (a Canada type deal doesn't cut it) our services based economy is screwed.

I appreciate that I'm repeating stuff that I said before the referendum but this stuff needed to have been sorted before we served the Article 50 notice. To go into a time limited negotiation not knowing what you want or the impact of it (David Davis you lying ****) is negligent beyond belief.

This is going to be studied for centuries as an example of how not to do things.

or before the referendum really
its inconceivable that the leave / remain 'offers' that the public were presented cover so little of the reality of the situation. Extreme negligence is exactly what it was.

 

[callan]

Or a Swiss type deal.

If people are kicking up a fuss over paying to settle our debts then the row over future payments is going to be big time. But without that type of deal (a Canada type deal doesn't cut it) our services based economy is screwed.

I appreciate that I'm repeating stuff that I said before the referendum but this stuff needed to have been sorted before we served the Article 50 notice. To go into a time limited negotiation not knowing what you want or the impact of it (David Davis you lying ****) is negligent beyond belief.

This is going to be studied for centuries as an example of how not to do things.

I'm not so sure....the outcome can only be assessed once it is known and for that we will have to wait a long time.

If we end up like Switzerland or Norway (two of the most prosperous and successful countries in the world), I doubt that many will complain.

In respect of your pre referendum comments neither country are EU members....

 

[londonblue]

I think the figures you present pre rebate are fairly accurate, however and I cant stress this enough the comparison is net for the UK, and Gross for Norway on the figures I am using....in other words there is no calculation for anything Norway may get back (such as research grants etc)

Why would the EU pay Norway a rebate when they're not a member? I just Googled "Norway EU rebate", and there's nothing, so our net figure against their only figure is the correct comparison.

Also the financial figure I am using as Noways financial contribution to trade (100 million) is based on its Efta membership costs and EU internal market functionality payments combined.

I understand what you mean, but Norway wouldn't pay anything to the EU if it wasn't trading and engaged with it, so the full amount is the correct one for comparison.

It seems that post Brexit we'll be doing exactly what the remainers said before the vote: we'll be paying at least the same with no way to influence the decisions taken. And when those decisions affect companies in this country that trade with the EU then we have a problem.

 

[Lord Football]

Perhaps what Yorkie is driving at, is an EFTA type deal where contributions are made to the functioning of the internal market.

...but, unless there is a massive change in Government planning, we aren't looking to join EFTA.

There are no plans for the UK to follow any existing model, so discussions about what Norway or Switzerland do or don't do, aren't really relevant in the Brexit context.

What did interest me was Mogg on the news earlier attempting to square the circle that is the Irish border by completing misunderstanding the CEO of HMRC who said "we will implement Government policy". Of course he will, that's his job. He didn't comment, for very good reasons, on government policy. That's clearly not his job.

 

[callan]

...but, unless there is a massive change in Government planning, we aren't looking to join EFTA.

There are no plans for the UK to follow any existing model, so discussions about what Norway or Switzerland do or don't do, aren't really relevant in the Brexit context.

What did interest me was Mogg on the news earlier attempting to square the circle that is the Irish border by completing misunderstanding the CEO of HMRC who said "we will implement Government policy". Of course he will, that's his job. He didn't comment, for very good reasons, on government policy. That's clearly not his job.

I think we can forgive YB for assuming this Tory government will do the opposite of whatever they are stating.

 

[callan]

Why would the EU pay Norway a rebate when they're not a member? I just Googled "Norway EU rebate", and there's nothing, so our net figure against their only figure is the correct comparison.



I understand what you mean, but Norway wouldn't pay anything to the EU if it wasn't trading and engaged with it, so the full amount is the correct one for comparison.

It seems that post Brexit we'll be doing exactly what the remainers said before the vote: we'll be paying at least the same with no way to influence the decisions taken. And when those decisions affect companies in this country that trade with the EU then we have a problem.

Over half of the of the Norwegian sum is contributed towards projects where they choose to derive a benefit... financial or otherwise, and the reason you won't find 'Norweigan rebate on google' is for the simple reason it doesn't exist....try Horizon 2020 as a search and you will see an example of where money comes back to Norway.

In other words, of the Norwegian 750 million (pounds)..450 million (Euro) is sent by choice....full membership of the EU comes at a cost far higher....and is not a choice.

 

[londonblue]

Over half of the of the Norwegian sum is contributed towards projects where they choose to derive a benefit... financial or otherwise, and the reason you won't find 'Norweigan rebate on google' is for the simple reason it doesn't exist....try Horizon 2020 as a search and you will see an example of where money comes back to Norway.

In other words, of the Norwegian 750 million (pounds)..450 million (Euro) is sent by choice....full membership of the EU comes at a cost far higher....and is not a choice.

But if Norway weren't trading with the EU they wouldn't pay the 450 million. There'd be no benefit to them. It might not be specifically to do with trade, but it keeps everyone happy. It's part of the price of trade, even if it's indirect.

 

[callan]

But if Norway weren't trading with the EU they wouldn't pay the 450 million. There'd be no benefit to them. It might not be specifically to do with trade, but it keeps everyone happy. It's part of the price of trade, even if it's indirect.

No it's a choice, that benefits both parties....the balance of the sum is what makes up 'part of the price of trade' as you put it.

 

[londonblue]

No it's a choice, that benefits both parties....the balance of the sum is what makes up 'part of the price of trade' as you put it.

As I said. It might be their choice, but it's a consequence of trade. They wouldn't pay it if it didn't benefit their trade.

 

[callan]

As I said. It might be their choice, but it's a consequence of trade. They wouldn't pay it if it didn't benefit their trade.

A lot of the projects have no benefit to trade whatsoever.
..they may benefitt the enviroment, social justice,, education....a whole manner of things and have no beariing or relatiionshipt to business..

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

A lot of the projects have no benefit to trade whatsoever.
..they may benefitt the enviroment, social justice,, education....a whole manner of things and have no beariing or relatiionshipt to business..

Very true, the EU, (WITH PARTNERS!) run and fund many NGOs and projects which I believe the UK will continue to be partners in.
Many have "spin offs" that do assist the contributing Nations directly and indirectly.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Very true, the EU, (WITH PARTNERS!) run and fund many NGOs and projects which I believe the UK will continue to be partners in.
Many have "spin offs" that do assist the contributing Nations directly and indirectly.

Such as the Erasmus programme, (I hope),which the UK and all the other 27 EU countries have all benefited from.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Such as the Erasmus programme, (I hope),which the UK and all the other 27 EU countries have all benefited from.

Indeed. One of the precious few success stories that the EU can be rightly proud of. It has it's flaws (student cheating and widespread corruption in the accreditation and awarding) but on the whole all 37 past and present participating counties have benefited in one way or another.

As to what happens after Brexit I would like to think both the EU and the British government wouldn't be so stupid as to not agree on terms that continue to benefit all concerned and continue with a program that allows those UK students that are willing and able to travel to study to do so.

Of all the complicated Brexit negotiations in the pipeline this is possibly one that potentially has the biggest impact on the long term future growth of the UK and it's youth and woe betide a government that fails to ensure this one option in regard to their educational future.






I now need to go lie down. I agreed with TUIB :hilarious:

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Indeed. One of the precious few success stories that the EU can be rightly proud of. It has it's flaws (student cheating and widespread corruption in the accreditation and awarding) but on the whole all 37 past and present participating counties have benefited in one way or another.

As to what happens after Brexit I would like to think both the EU and the British government wouldn't be so stupid as to not agree on terms that continue to benefit all concerned and continue with a program that allows those UK students that are willing and able to travel to study to do so.

Of all the complicated Brexit negotiations in the pipeline this is possibly one that potentially has the biggest impact on the long term future growth of the UK and it's youth and woe betide a government that fails to ensure this one option in regard to their educational future.






I now need to go lie down. I agreed with TUIB :hilarious:

I think the concern with a lot of these things is that it's unlikely we can just assume they will carry on. They will still require contract negotiations and legal vetting and with the amount of work required on the big ticket items I wonder how many of these niche but valuable arrangements will fall by the wayside because the relevant personnel are not available to sign it off.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42217735

Rather looks like the lack of agreement about Ireland is going to prevent phase two trade talks going ahead in December.

 

[londonblue]

A lot of the projects have no benefit to trade whatsoever.
..they may benefitt the enviroment, social justice,, education....a whole manner of things and have no beariing or relatiionshipt to business..

Indeed, but without the need to trade with the EU there's no way in hell they'd pay towards them.

 

[rigsby]

One of Italy's former PM's has suggested that once we leave, the EU should conduct business in English. Perhaps he is worried we will steal a march on future world trade. Anyway someone has suggested we licence our language to the EU. Good idea how about £50b :smile:

 

[MK Shrimper]

Apparently we've conceeded that there will be no hard border between NI/ROI. How could there possibly be anything else?

 

[Lord Football]

Apparently we've conceeded that there will be no hard border between NI/ROI. How could there possibly be anything else?

.....and that will open a can of worms.

If I have understood what the newstands are telling me....

the border will be in the Irish Sea, effectively mean Ireland is one island.
there will be no customs checks between north and south, (which opens up a can of worms with WTO rules)
not sure whether there will be customs checks at the sea border for those going to UK to N Ireland. (technicaly, we could end up in a position where UK citizens are subject to customs checks whilst never leaving the UK)

It's probably the only answer to solve the Good Friday Agreement issue. However, the devil will be in the details - and they don't exist yet.

Lots of questions for those who voted Leave to consider, I suspect. Soverienty, taking control of borders, membership of the customs union??