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Brexit negotiations thread

Yogi, I’m not sure whether you read my earlier post making predictions for how this will all play out? :Smile:

Well, Tuesdays votes in parliament, Tory and DUP unity behind the focus now on amending provisions to maintain no hard border on Ireland and any deal to be struck at the 11th hour before (or on) 29 March including a temporary extension of a matter of a few weeks to allow necessary legislation to be passed are all on track to be what happens.

Don’t forget, extending now or ruling out no deal would not bring the EU back to the negotiating table and for that reason alone it was vital we didn’t do that on Tuesday. That doesn’t mean that we won’t extend or that the government wants no deal. It is purely a matter of timing because the EU will not budge until they are forced to and they will at that point, mark my words. What will happen will be a face saving measure that allows UK integrity to be maintained but the EU to claim that the border is protected. It is not all the details of the technology, for example, which is absolutely deliverable but will take a year or two to develop, that is being worked out now it is purely a political mechanism for how we and the EU will agree an end to the transition period. My money is on the can being kicked down the road on that by it being agreed that there will be some kind of regular review / decision points on progress during the transition period regarding its extension or end. That is totally possible and very easy, it just takes the political will to do it - and the EU will get there in the end (but only right at the end).

Yes I did, alhough I think my conclusions are a little different from yours............................is that surprising? :Smile: I perfectly understand the logic of what went on in the HoC earlier this week. Yes, the Brady amendment displayed what may be necessary to get the deal through the House (I say maybe, because hard-nose ERG members may always demand more blood). The problem is, what arranges the parliamentary Conservative & Unionist parties, is not often to the liking of the EU. I believe what the EU has said about not re-opening the withdrawal agreement. In my view they are not going to take out the backstop, give it a time limit or allow the UK to withdraw from it unilaterally. IIUC they don't see what you and the government believe, is providing the EU with an indication of what it wants...........................it sees it more as what, as usual, the UK doesn't want............i.e. the backstop. The only way the EU will budge is if an alternative is suggested...........for the moment, as I understand, that doesn't exist. I don't have the knowledge to know how this can be achieved or how long it will take but I do believe the EU won't move on the backstop until there is a viable alternative.
Neither side wants the catastrophy of a no-deal and in my opinion this will probably be avoided (but don't quote me on that! :Smile:) The way it will be done, in my view, is not by the EU buckling but by the leaving date just being pushed back and pushed back...........until the UK come up with the alternative solution to the backstop, which will be acceptable to both sides. Thus we approach a period of limbo....................which may be quite a long one.
 
Where to start? What seems to be clear in the past few days is that Corbyn has a similar problem to May, in trying to control his party. I believe both will find the next few weeks rather uncomfortable.
The Labour rebels who failed to support the Cooper/Boles amendment look as though they will hardly be sanctioned at all. This will surely encourage May (and the Tories) to try and bribe those rebels into supporting her deal. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/may-woos-labour-mps-with-cash-to-back-brexit-09chnckrn (I don't know whether that page will be blocked?) Maybe they need to look over at the Lib Dems bench(es) and understand what eventually happens, 'when you sell your soul to the Devil!' :Winking: Meanwhile, Corbyn, realised the enormous error he had made in making a meeting , for cross party talks with May, conditional. He must have been hugely relieved to jump upon on that weak amendment wishing to avoid a no deal, to backtrack on what he said............but his judgement has again been questioned and has come up short. I don't think it will become any easier as the cruch comes closer and he will be dragged (kicking and screaming? :Winking:) into making decisions he's been skillfully avoiding over the past months and years.
May? Well, May still clings to her deal............what else has she got? In the end it is hard to see the EU offering her more than comforting words, especially as she has little to offer by way of 'alternative arrangements' to replace the backstop..........even if the withdrawal agreement was to be re-opened.................which I don't think it will be.
So that deal will likely come back to the HoC with little change. I expect that May will find the warmth of the 'Brady victory' will suddenly seem a long time ago. DUP and ERG support will largely disappear and my guess is that she will not be able to bribe enough Labour votes to get it through. THEN, I assume, things will start to get interesting! NO ONE wants a no deal ( I'm refering to the EU & UK........not the ERG or the hard Brexiters on here!) but of course there is a danger it could happen by accident. Personally, I think someone will crack before then and it is likely to be on the UK side. What that eventuality will result in? God only knows.............a General Election? a second referendum?..........or just a delay in departure? The EU claims it will not give an extension to March 29th without good reason, equally, May states she won't alter that date. Both, I suspect, are SO desperate to avoid a no deal that the leaving date could just be pushed back...... and pushed back............and pushed back???
Whatever the outcome, for a political animal, we are going through an incredibly fascinating time in our history. Like a good thriller, I'm almost dreading the conclusion, I can't turn the pages fast enough and certainly can't put the book down.

Yogi,You will have noticed that there were about half a dozen rebels on either side for the two main amendments the other night.In fact, one of the remarkable things about Tuesday's various amendments was how much voting was split on traditional party lines.Whatever happened to the national interest and voting according to your conscience? Personally,I applaud all the Tory/Labour rebels (though there are a few names on that Labour list that I have no time for at all).
 
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What leaving meant was made abundantly clear in the leaflet so kindly distributed by Cameron's government. 1.May's deal comes nowhere close.
2.No one says the EU will collapse just because the UK leaves, but it may help
. It seems the disenchantment with Brussels is growing and the forthcoming elections may or may not reinforce that belief. Hopefully the voters of the EU states will show Brussels that their days of ruling are coming to an end.

1.I'm not sure that's at all true.It does contain provisions for leaving the single market and the customs union.

2.Your comments about the EU are just wishful thinking.
 
Thank you, you've just proved my point. You're lack of knowledge regarding the last 60 odd years of EU hegemony is truly astounding..................but predictable.

I've actually lived and worked in EU member states, other than the UK for the last 40 years or so, and can provide you with many examples from my own personal experience of how the EU has vastly improved the lives of its citizens in France and Spain, during that time.

Got any examples of "the last 60 years of EU hegemony" that you want to mention? No,I didn't think so.
 
Yogi, I’m not sure whether you read my earlier post making predictions for how this will all play out? :Smile:

Well, Tuesdays votes in parliament, Tory and DUP unity behind the focus now on amending provisions to maintain no hard border on Ireland and any deal to be struck at the 11th hour before (or on) 29 March including a temporary extension of a matter of a few weeks to allow necessary legislation to be passed are all on track to be what happens.

Don’t forget, extending now or ruling out no deal would not bring the EU back to the negotiating table and for that reason alone it was vital we didn’t do that on Tuesday. That doesn’t mean that we won’t extend or that the government wants no deal. It is purely a matter of timing because the EU will not budge until they are forced to and they will at that point, mark my words. What will happen will be a face saving measure that allows UK integrity to be maintained but the EU to claim that the border is protected. It is not all the details of the technology, for example, which is absolutely deliverable but will take a year or two to develop, that is being worked out now it is purely a political mechanism for how we and the EU will agree an end to the transition period. My money is on the can being kicked down the road on that by it being agreed that there will be some kind of regular review / decision points on progress during the transition period regarding its extension or end. That is totally possible and very easy, it just takes the political will to do it - and the EU will get there in the end (but only right at the end).
Tories and DUP unified behind telling May the deal she agreed with the EU is not good enough. Somehow she was allowed to spin this as her win. We need a new media.
 
I've actually lived and worked in EU member states, other than the UK for the last 40 years or so, and can provide you with many examples from my own personal experience of how the EU has vastly improved the lives of its citizens in France and Spain, during that time.

Got any examples of "the last 60 years of EU hegemony" that you want to mention? No,I didn't think so.

The evidence is all out there Barna IF you choose to look hard enough chap. You don't and that's a shame, you'll never learn anything or step out of your bubble. This is not the right thread and nor have I the time nor inclination to go through them all with you. I'm done conversing with you. You're mind is closed to any other kind of view except your own blinkered Socialist one.
 
1.I'm not sure that's at all true.It does contain provisions for leaving the single market and the customs union.

2.Your comments about the EU are just wishful thinking.

As you know France have always been the key string pullers of the EU, that's why they originally blocked our membership...….Anyway they have a world famous capital city by the name of Paris,,,,,do you know anyone who has booked a weekend there lately?


I've actually lived and worked in EU member states, other than the UK for the last 40 years or so, and can provide you with many examples from my own personal experience of how the EU has vastly improved the lives of its citizens in France and Spain, during that time.

Got any examples of "the last 60 years of EU hegemony" that you want to mention? No,I didn't think so.

Your dead right on that one Tangled. That's why we voted out

Yogi mentioned British lamb a while back, I have friends who live just SW of Limoges. On one trip there I met a farmer who sole income was from sheep, even had a look around his farm. The thing with sheep is the more you have the more land you need, his was a modest farm so he had about 100 sheep. At the abattoir he gets about £125 per head.

How could he survive on £12,500 per year, would that even cover the basics?......The answer is of course subsidies. The best bit is he was British and had moved out to France because
it was much better financially for him. His land back in the UK is unused, just like the 6,000 UK dairy farmers that have gone bust or packed up in recent times. Supermarkets can import cheap EU milk, just enough to cause the price of dairy farming to be non profitable as a business in the UK. In rural areas farms means work for locals and work for suppliers and vehicles etc for many people...….Just ask any farmer in Spain or France.

In the mean time lets not forget every time we fill our shopping trollies us Brits have already payed half the bill in taxes before we get to the till. If we aren't going to give it to our framers then lets buy tariff free food form the rest of the world......For societies poorest that would be a great boost.
 
I talked earlier about the possibility of Article 50 being delayed and delayed due to the lack of desire on both sides for a no-deal. This morning, in the process of waking up, I heard someone on the 'Today' programme suggesting an alternative way out of the Article 50 problem. He was suggesting that it could just be put on pause , which would allow us to move on to the transitional phase. I think he cited the EU trade agreement with Canada as using the same mechanism when it hit difficulties. Would much appreciate any of the those more knowledgeable on negotiating procedures, explaining if and how this could work.
 
The pathological hatred of the EU displayed by some posters is very curious and to examine why is an interesting process in trying to understand why the institution arouses so much hostility. To take the issue of alleged corruption we need to bear in mind that it is synonymous with the way that big business works and usually, the EU will be the corruptee rather than the corruptor. Corruption will continue to be part of how the wheels of commerce are oiled whether we leave the EU or not. Presumably to Brexiteers home grown corruption is preferable to the continental variety, at least it will be our own. Which leads on to the other big issue of sovereignty and control, which seems to be central to the resentment the EU excites. At the heart of this is clearly the British sense of identity, as though somehow or other, the other countries in the 27 do not share our nationalistic sentiments, and ours is more important to us than it is to a Frenchman or a German. The UK has always been a negative force in the EU, sniping and niggling from the sidelines instead of being committed to the project and the war of attrition carried out for years by the foreign resident owned 'British press' has obviously played a part in forming the negative narrative which is regularly trotted out by those who want to see it fail. The historical judgement of the EU will I believe count it as force for good in the main, a testament to how much more cooperation and pooling resources can achieve compared to trade wars and worse, military conflict between nations on the same continent. Of course it is far from perfect but I suggest it has civilised values which are palpably not shared by the USA , Russia nor China. The UK, having famously lost an empire has still not found a role in the modern world and to try to go it alone, deal or no deal, is an act of national self harm that will have incalculable consequences, especially for those most vulnerable. One repellent aspect of the debate has been the thinly disguised strand of racism that has been released into the nation's bloodstream. The end of freedom of movement will be largely symbolic, many East Europeans are either going back home or moving to more congenial surroundings but the underlying racism that has now been given the cloak of respectability will only get worse as new scapegoats will need to be found for the impending disaster of Brexit.

Indeed.Fintan O' Toole in his excellent "Heroic failure:Brexit and the politics of pain" puts this "process" down to a desire for national self-harm.As he points out, so many Brexiteers can't understand why the UK won WW2 in 1945 but couldn't suceed in winning the peace afterwards.He couples this with lots of amusing references to 50 Shades of Grey.It rather looks like there is more pain on the way too.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47083214
 
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As you know France have always been the key string pullers of the EU, that's why they originally blocked our membership...….Anyway they have a world famous capital city by the name of Paris,,,,,do you know anyone who has booked a weekend there lately?.

Yes.Quite a few of my students at the French Lycée were there before and over Xmas.
 
The evidence is all out there Barna IF you choose to look hard enough chap. You don't and that's a shame, you'll never learn anything or step out of your bubble. This is not the right thread and nor have I the time nor inclination to go through them all with you. I'm done conversing with you. You're mind is closed to any other kind of view except your own blinkered Socialist one.

Actually,it sounds to me as if you're just describing yourself (if you substitute Conservative for the word Socialist,of course).:Winking:

Unlike you,it would seem,I'm always willing to debate issues with people I disagree with.Ever heard of the Marxist concept of praxis?
 
Indeed.Fintan O' Toole in his excellent "Heroic failure:Brexit and the politics of pain" puts this "process" down to a desire for national self-harm.As he points out, so many Brexiteers can't understand why the UK won WW2 in 1945 but couldn't suceed in winning the peace afterwards.He couples this with lots of amusing references to 50 Shades of Grey.It rather looks like there is more pain on the way too.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47083214
Certainly the after effects of WW2 must have been hugely influential on UK childrens' perception of their national identity, All those war comics like Valiant glorifying our military exploits not to mention the British war movie exemplified by 'The Dam Busters', 'Reach for the Sky' etc must have played a part in forming young minds view of us v them. How long after Brexit when things go pear shaped will it be before someone tries to invoke the Dunkirk spirit and indulges in sub Churchillian rhetoric. Johnson must be preparing himself with the blood, toil, sweat and tears routine, we stood alone before etc.
 
Actually,it sounds to me as if you're just describing yourself (if you substitute Conservative for the word Socialist,of course).:Winking:

Unlike you,it would seem,I'm always willing to debate issues with people I disagree with.Ever heard of the Marxist concept of praxis?

That's the last thing you ever do. You like so many other remainers avoid debate at all cost.

Just look at your last reply to see a great example.
 
Certainly the after effects of WW2 must have been hugely influential on UK childrens' perception of their national identity, All those war comics like Valiant glorifying our military exploits not to mention the British war movie exemplified by 'The Dam Busters', 'Reach for the Sky' etc must have played a part in forming young minds view of us v them. How long after Brexit when things go pear shaped will it be before someone tries to invoke the Dunkirk spirit and indulges in sub Churchillian rhetoric. Johnson must be preparing himself with the blood, toil, sweat and tears routine, we stood alone before etc.

Your so astute that's exactly why 52 % voted leave. We should have a poll for which Britsh war film made you vote leave.

My favourite is Zulu. Thats because its not just Germany or France we should still be at war with. Its obvious to me that full invasion of Africa would be the correct thing to do. Lets face it their governments are even worse than the EU.
 
How romantic dinner and fine wine by burned out car fire,how French,must do it one day.

Remember the LFB caters mainly for middle class kids.Their (usually) wealthy French parents have relatives/friends in Paris or own their own properties there.As for the teenagers I teach, they're legally not old enough to drink wine,of course.They were quite shocked by what they saw in Paris though.As I imagine most of us would be.
 
Certainly the after effects of WW2 must have been hugely influential on UK childrens' perception of their national identity, All those war comics like Valiant glorifying our military exploits not to mention the British war movie exemplified by 'The Dam Busters', 'Reach for the Sky' etc must have played a part in forming young minds view of us v them. How long after Brexit when things go pear shaped will it be before someone tries to invoke the Dunkirk spirit and indulges in sub Churchillian rhetoric. Johnson must be preparing himself with the blood, toil, sweat and tears routine, we stood alone before etc.

Ha! I always used to wonder, sitting around and watching those awful old WW2 films on Sunday afternoon TV (back in the 60's) whether German kids were doing the same thing. :Winking:

Agree with your concluding point too,BTW.:Thumbs up:
 

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