Brexit negotiations thread

[Spaceman Spiff]

Unfortunately,the Brady amendment does not tell the EU what the UK actually wants,only what it doesn't want.Since it was the UK's decision to trigger Article 50 unilaterally,it rather behoves MP's in the UK to make a political decision on what basis they want to leave the EU ,rather than leave the decision making process to the EU.

Behave

 

[rigsby]

I imagine Tories certainly think so.Why do you?

No I think if we had left the EU 10 years ago we would have far less austerity. Still its never to late to change.

The problem is you have to admit you were wrong. As scientific tests have proven, the people who are the least likely to admit they are wrong are degree educated, liberal/left leaning who shy away from challenging group think amongst their peers. They will even silence debate and mock others in order to cover up the fact they were wrong.

The CIA and the US military admit they rely on this arrogance to operate as they do.

Mark Twain said "Its easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled"

If you need proof of any of the above just look back over this thread and the denials about the EU followed by repetitive name calling and insults by SOME remainers

 

[rigsby]

Here is something that might interest both sides as it covers the EU from 1975. Some of you may know that Thatcher was a big fan back then but how many of you remember that leave was part of the Labour GE campaign in 1983

Worth a watch just for Tony Benns speech. Remember having family dinner by candlelight during the power cuts ? plus music from the era.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY_BgnZdwko

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Try reading what I write for a change, not what you think I've written. I want Europe as a trading block to carry on and prosper and I want the UK to be a major player in that trading block.

What I also want, I want the EU as a political and financial one size fits all corrupt and dictatorial institution to fail. As I've said before I don't want to see the UK as a satellite state of a much larger federalist empire.

And it's not semantics at all. Destruction implies ruin by an outside force. Collapse implies under it's own influence and force. Understanding the difference, as in all things, is key.

Collapse, or whatever word you want to use the result would be the same, the emasculation of Europe as a world player. Europe as a loose trading bloc of nations would have little power, each country would defend their own interests. It's exactly what Trump favours, it's far easier to screw individual countries with bi-lateral agreements than dealing with a bloc.
you didn't reply to the question I posed about multi-national lobby groups when we are outside the awful EU.............would they melt away...........or grow in influence??? You also avoid answering the the question about the odd bed-fellows you find yourself with. Why do you think Trump and Putin desperately want to weaken Europe and are you in agreement with them?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

No I think if we had left the EU 10 years ago we would have far less austerity. Still its never to late to change.

The problem is you have to admit you were wrong. As scientific tests have proven, the people who are the least likely to admit they are wrong are degree educated, liberal/left leaning who shy away from challenging group think amongst their peers. They will even silence debate and mock others in order to cover up the fact they were wrong.

The CIA and the US military admit they rely on this arrogance to operate as they do.

Mark Twain said "Its easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled"

If you need proof of any of the above just look back over this thread and the denials about the EU followed by repetitive name calling and insults by SOME remainers

I don't have to admit I'm wrong about the EU at all.Remember I voted against in 1975.If I've changed my mind since. (which I have). it's because my own personal experience of working and living in other EU countries,namely France and Spain.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I don't have to admit I'm wrong about the EU at all.Remember I voted against in 1975.If I've changed my mind since. (which I have). it's because my own personal experience of working and living in other EU countries,namely France and Spain.

That seems completely reasonable to me. It is a shame that the political institutions of the EU as it is currently constituted are not ones I can accept, and nor do I believe they are capable of meaningful reform unless they are forced to do it.

If that reform ever happens, and I hope it does, then I look forward to the debate about rejoining and doing so properly (Euro and all) which I hope to be able to support. If us leaving helped move that process along in any way then even better. Clearly, we would need to apply and that application would need to be accepted - neither of which can be taken for granted. I realise that I may diverge from some other leave voters here. If, of course, that reform doesn’t happen then I remain convinced that when we leave it will be the right decision. That’s an opinion, a view and a feeling as I can’t read the future any more than the next person but it’s a sincerely held view.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Collapse, or whatever word you want to use the result would be the same, the emasculation of Europe as a world player. Europe as a loose trading bloc of nations would have little power, each country would defend their own interests. It's exactly what Trump favours, it's far easier to screw individual countries with bi-lateral agreements than dealing with a bloc.
you didn't reply to the question I posed about multi-national lobby groups when we are outside the awful EU.............would they melt away...........or grow in influence??? You also avoid answering the the question about the odd bed-fellows you find yourself with. Why do you think Trump and Putin desperately want to weaken Europe and are you in agreement with them?

Your hypothesis assumes that each sovereign nation, the UK included, is weak and without the will to stand on its own two feet. Very disingenuous of you. Power belongs with individual nations and their Governments, not with a collection of socially, politically and financially diverse countries with their own individual agendas all beholden to the Euro Group of finance ministers, the head of the Bundestag, the Banque de France, the ECB and the IMF, to name but a few.

To answer your question about multi national lobby groups. Of course they wouldn't just melt away. They'll still be plying their nefarious trade long after you and I have shifted. But, and here's the rub. You assume we NEED the EU in order to bargain, deal and negotiate our way around our trading options on the world stage. We don't and neither will the rest of the 27 other EU member states when the shackles are off and off for good.

 

[Bielzibubz]

That seems completely reasonable to me. It is a shame that the political institutions of the EU as it is currently constituted are not ones I can accept, and nor do I believe they are capable of meaningful reform unless they are forced to do it.

If that reform ever happens, and I hope it does, then I look forward to the debate about rejoining and doing so properly (Euro and all) which I hope to be able to support. If us leaving helped move that process along in any way then even better. Clearly, we would need to apply and that application would need to be accepted - neither of which can be taken for granted. I realise that I may diverge from some other leave voters here. If, of course, that reform doesn’t happen then I remain convinced that when we leave it will be the right decision. That’s an opinion, a view and a feeling as I can’t read the future any more than the next person but it’s a sincerely held view.

If it were capable of reform it would have made some attempt at it by now but it hasn't. The writing has been on the wall for years now. 2008 proved what a high risk game the EU were playing and some countries paid a very high price indeed to the EU's near collapse into financial ruin. I believe the only way forward now is for the EU to fail and over the decades to come be rebuilt into what it should have been all along. A strong and diverse trading block of nations all working together to build better economic futures for themselves but all the while keeping their sovereignty, their national identity and their economic and financial independence. I won't be around to see that happen but if I were then THAT is what I'd put my cross against to rejoin.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

May has a cunning plan?

Your hypothesis assumes that each sovereign nation, the UK included, is weak and without the will to stand on its own two feet. Very disingenuous of you. Power belongs with individual nations and their Governments, not with a collection of socially, politically and financially diverse countries with their own individual agendas all beholden to the Euro Group of finance ministers, the head of the Bundestag, the Banque de France, the ECB and the IMF, to name but a few.

To answer your question about multi national lobby groups. Of course they wouldn't just melt away. They'll still be plying their nefarious trade long after you and I have shifted. But, and here's the rub. You assume we NEED the EU in order to bargain, deal and negotiate our way around our trading options on the world stage. We don't and neither will the rest of the 27 other EU member states when the shackles are off and off for good.

No doubt a lot of European countries will be looking with great interest when (if?) the UK sets off on its own. Some experts will no doubt be proved right, others will end up with egg on their face but of course it depends on what kind of a trade deal we end up arranging with the EU. I don't think there is a large number of voters who realise that the UK is going to be part of a big experiment and gamble (maybe the UK should be comforted by the large number of Euro millions they win?) By the way, you still didn't tell me how comfortable (uncomfortable) you feel about being on the same side as Putin and Trump.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

A good night for May............or perhaps we should say, a good night for the Conservative Party. For many others it's groundhog day again..............and the clock keeps ticking.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

A good night for May............or perhaps we should say, a good night for the Conservative Party. For many others it's groundhog day again..............and the clock keeps ticking.

The deal that May negotiated and she said was final - Parliament has sent her back to the EU to change it.

It shows how low this government has sunk that that could be viewed as a good day at the office.

 

[Bielzibubz]

May has a cunning plan?


No doubt a lot of European countries will be looking with great interest when (if?) the UK sets off on its own. Some experts will no doubt be proved right, others will end up with egg on their face but of course it depends on what kind of a trade deal we end up arranging with the EU. I don't think there is a large number of voters who realise that the UK is going to be part of a big experiment and gamble (maybe the UK should be comforted by the large number of Euro millions they win?) By the way, you still didn't tell me how comfortable (uncomfortable) you feel about being on the same side as Putin and Trump.

I don't feel comfortable about it at all but I have an enormous amount of belief in UK PLC that's only matched by the amount of mistrust and dislike I have for the whole of the EU project. Trump won't be there for much longer (fingers crossed) and Putin, well, we'll have to wait and see on that one. Although I believe he's dangerous I don't believe for one minute he's stupid.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

The Conservative Party voted together on Brexit. May will believe, if miracles can happen at Westminster...................then why not in Brussels???!

 

[Bielzibubz]

The deal that May negotiated and she said was final - Parliament has sent her back to the EU to change it.

It shows how low this government has sunk that that could be viewed as a good day at the office.

It's not the same deal otherwise it would have been rejected again. They've been debating potential changes that can hopefully be made to the deal at this end before it goes back to the EU.

 

[Bielzibubz]

The Conservative Party voted together on Brexit. May will believe, if miracles can happen at Westminster...................then why not in Brussels???!

As I said before Yogi, it's brinkmanship and a gamble. This was always going to go to the wire. The EU was never in a million years going to give her what she wanted off the bat. The EU have been waiting for Brexit to fail. Waiting and hoping. They've been waiting for TM to lose her bottle and take her chance with the electorate. That hasn't happened. Now Parliament has given her the nod to push on with Brexit the ball is now firmly in the EU court. They're stuck between a brick wall and a hard place. Call her bluff and hope we don't go through with a no deal or allow her more negotiating time to come up with a working deal that they can agree on and the UK leaves and then have to deal with the ramifications that will certainly come from other disillusioned nations.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

That seems completely reasonable to me. It is a shame that the political institutions of the EU as it is currently constituted are not ones I can accept, and nor do I believe they are capable of meaningful reform unless they are forced to do it.

If that reform ever happens, and I hope it does, then I look forward to the debate about rejoining and doing so properly (Euro and all) which I hope to be able to support. If us leaving helped move that process along in any way then even better. Clearly, we would need to apply and that application would need to be accepted - neither of which can be taken for granted. I realise that I may diverge from some other leave voters here. If, of course, that reform doesn’t happen then I remain convinced that when we leave it will be the right decision. That’s an opinion, a view and a feeling as I can’t read the future any more than the next person but it’s a sincerely held view.

FWIW,I firmly believe there will be another referendum, in about 20 years time,calling for the UK to rejoin the EU.I just hope I'm alive to see it.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Absolutely nothing has changed.May will go to Brussels with the Brady amendment vote in her handbag.The EU will say they're not prepared to re-open negotians on the Irish Backstop.May will come back to Westminster in a fortnight to try again to get her deal through Parliament.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Both sides are gambling to get what they want. May goes back to the EU trying to change the backstop, she won't be too bothered that they say no, as they badly want her deal with the backstop. She then comes back and says the EU wouldn't budge. She now knows that Parliament doesn't want a no deal as voted against tonight. Her nightmare deal now has more chance of going through, with probably a tiny concession or Two from the EU which suits her as a remainer and the EU, who want us half in half out. This has always been half the trouble. May and the EU are after the same thing.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Both sides are gambling to get what they want. May goes back to the EU trying to change the backstop, she won't be too bothered that they say no, as they badly want her deal with the backstop. She then comes back and says the EU wouldn't budge. She now knows that Parliament doesn't want a no deal as voted against tonight. Her nightmare deal now has more chance of going through, with probably a tiny concession or Two from the EU which suits her as a remainer and the EU, who want us half in half out. This has always been half the trouble. May and the EU are after the same thing.

The EU Deputy Chief Negotiator (post 5277) says that the UK negotiators designed the backstop. Assuming that is true it just highlights the case that the Tories are still arguing among themselves about what they want, the big thing that we are blaming the EU for is apparently the UK's plan. The backstop solves some issues for the EU, but was UK's idea - and it took 18 months to agree it.

I agree that May is just going backwards and forwards hoping enough of the players get frustrated and just go along with her bad deal to make it all stop. Letwin today said he was past caring what the actual deal is, he just wants there to be one.

Campaign slogan 'Brexit, just do it, it no longer matters what it means, just do it'.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

It's not the same deal otherwise it would have been rejected again. They've been debating potential changes that can hopefully be made to the deal at this end before it goes back to the EU.

its the same deal but she will now asked for the backstop to be removed or a time limit added. All the flaws of the deal will still be there, its just the fall back / safety net (that we are told should never be needed) that the amendment looks to change, no other specifics.