Brexit negotiations thread

[Bielzibubz]

That was also back in a bygone age when people were far less knowledgeable about politics in general and far more willing to accept blindly all that they were spoon fed by a few broadsheets, a biased BBC radio service and three TV channels. Today's generation (my age and younger) are (thankfully) far less forgiving, far less tolerant, and a hell of a lot more knowledgable.

 

[blues exile]

That was also back in a bygone age when people were far less knowledgeable about politics in general and far more willing to accept blindly all that they were spoon fed by a few broadsheets, a biased BBC radio service and three TV channels. Today's generation (my age and younger) are (thankfully) far less forgiving, far less tolerant, and a hell of a lot more knowledgable.

My experience is the exact opposite. The general dumbing down of public discourse, the emphasis on meaningless soundbites and the lack of accountability by proven liars like Boris Johnson whose clownish behaviour would never have been tolerated in bygone years all serve to highlight that the Thatcher's Children generation, so many of whom are running the country, are the most ignorant, trivial minded generation imaginable.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

That was also back in a bygone age when people were far less knowledgeable about politics in general and far more willing to accept blindly all that they were spoon fed by a few broadsheets, a biased BBC radio service and three TV channels. Today's generation (my age and younger) are (thankfully) far less forgiving, far less tolerant, and a hell of a lot more knowledgable.

Well at least, when you read the Telegraph, Guardian etc you know who you are being spoon fed by. In my opinion, with social media your opinions and views are being surveyed, exploited, manipulated and targeted by people you don't know. They hide behind propaganda and fake news and in my view pose a serious threat to democracy.
If you believe people are more knowledgeable about politics you obviously haven't been watching the same news interviews as me. OK, perhaps it's totally unrepresentative but every time I see the public asked for their views on Brexit, the general level of crass ignorance is staggering.
In bygone days the BBC could be opinionated, bringing occasional criticism from both sides of the political divide. Now they seem to bend over so far backwards, to try and appear unbiased, that their news has become completely neutered. Channel 4 is at least provocative and tries to ask the right questions.. ...................................................but who listens to Channel 4 News???

 

[Bielzibubz]

Well at least, when you read the Telegraph, Guardian etc you know who you are being spoon fed by. In my opinion, with social media your opinions and views are being surveyed, exploited, manipulated and targeted by people you don't know. They hide behind propaganda and fake news and in my view pose a serious threat to democracy.
If you believe people are more knowledgeable about politics you obviously haven't been watching the same news interviews as me. OK, perhaps it's totally unrepresentative but every time I see the public asked for their views on Brexit, the general level of crass ignorance is staggering.
In bygone days the BBC could be opinionated, bringing occasional criticism from both sides of the political divide. Now they seem to bend over so far backwards, to try and appear unbiased, that their news has become completely neutered. Channel 4 is at least provocative and tries to ask the right questions.. ...................................................but who listens to Channel 4 News???

I'm not suggesting the extra availability to knowledge is strictly a good thing per se. In some respects it is. The ability to fact check stories and quotes that would have once been taken as fact. The ability of social media to spread truth as well as lies and misinformation. I believe the general population are far more sceptical and mistrusting of politicians that ever before and that fact can, in part, be attributed to the way in which information is shared and disseminated across a multitude of platforms and outlets.

Whether they pose a serious threat to democracy is perhaps a discussion worthy of its own thread but on the whole I tend to agree with you. The lack of controls over social media and fake news in general is a dilemma successive governments over the past decade have chosen to kick down the road in the vain hope that somehow it would be self policed and controlled from within. It hasn't and nor will it. The clock is ticking.

Politicians on the whole have to be far more wary of what they say and do than they ever have done before and that can only be a good thing for democracy. IMO

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

Deleted

 

[Swiss Tony]

My experience is the exact opposite. The general dumbing down of public discourse, the emphasis on meaningless soundbites and the lack of accountability by proven liars like Boris Johnson whose clownish behaviour would never have been tolerated in bygone years all serve to highlight that the Thatcher's Children generation, so many of whom are running the country, are the most ignorant, trivial minded generation imaginable.

That goes for both sides of the house,don't be shy about this it may make you look biased.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I asked a question why, not whether it has been done before. Because something has a precedent doesn't automatically make it right. Every MP had the chance to put their PERSONAL vote on a ballot paper back in June 2016. Their job now is to do what the majority of their constituents put them their to do. Enact the will of those according to how the majority voted. Their personal opinions and voting choice should never come into it when a national referendum has been called and an outcome forthcoming.

You appear to have an interesting but highly eclective interpretation of what representative democracy consists of.

Short of insisting that MP's provide their party chairmen with a letter of resignation when they're first elected,which is something the French Communist Party used to do in the period after WW2,your ideas are impraticable.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Well at least, when you read the Telegraph, Guardian etc you know who you are being spoon fed by. In my opinion, with social media your opinions and views are being surveyed, exploited, manipulated and targeted by people you don't know. They hide behind propaganda and fake news and in my view pose a serious threat to democracy.
If you believe people are more knowledgeable about politics you obviously haven't been watching the same news interviews as me. OK, perhaps it's totally unrepresentative but every time I see the public asked for their views on Brexit, the general level of crass ignorance is staggering.
In bygone days the BBC could be opinionated, bringing occasional criticism from both sides of the political divide. Now they seem to bend over so far backwards, to try and appear unbiased, that their news has become completely neutered. Channel 4 is at least provocative and tries to ask the right questions.. ...................................................but who listens to Channel 4 News???

I watch it every day,Yogi.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Any lack of accountability of our politicians doesn't stem from the inability of the public to do anything about it but moreover seems to me to be because when push comes to shove they are all feeding from the same trough with little prospect of the food ever running out. If you look back over recent history it's clear that although there has been an enormous increase in the ready availability of information there has systematically been an erosion of the power of the people to actually be able to do anything with that knowledge apart from put their cross on a ballot paper every four years.

We know politicians lie, talk crap, bend rules to suit and feather their own nests at every opportunity and they know we know. The problem is they also know that generally there is no recourse action that we can take and they take advantage of that fact week in week out, month in month out.

 

[Bielzibubz]

You appear to have an interesting but highly eclective interpretation of what representative democracy consists of.

Short of insisting that MP's provide their party chairmen with a letter of resignation when they're first elected,which is something the French Communist Party used to do in the period after WW2,your ideas are impraticable.

I know it is Barna, I'm not that naive to believe that it would or could ever become like that. That's the utopian idea of representative Democracy. One that I wish for but I know will never be.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I know it is Barna, I'm not that naive to believe that it would or could ever become like that. That's the utopian idea of representative Democracy. One that I wish for but I know will never be.

You have to be careful what you wish for! Here, the gilets jaunes are preparing to launch candidates in the forthcoming European Elections. I suppose it is somewhat close to a grass roots direct democracy movement. I await with interest to see what kind of a programme they are going to collect around. Previously it has suggested that it was a spontaeneous, non-political movement, without leaders. I strongly suspect that it will end up a bit like Brexit, where members know what they don't like but find themselves completely divided over what they do like. The trouble with all these people who are highly critical of the present democratic system, which they criticise for the lack of direct democracy, is that they can't offer a practical alternative. With all its faults the present system is hard to better and like the EU, would be better reformed than destroyed.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Agreed Yogi but I'll just repeat what I've said many many times before on this and other threads. The EU has proven time and time again over the last four decades or more that it is totally incapable of any meaningful democratic change or reform. Yes we have a veto on certain things. Yes we can influence certain aspects of how it is run but the fact remains the same. Nothing, nothing at all, will ever get in their way of the ultimate stated goal. A centralised financial and political superstate with Germany and France at the head of the table. That is NOT what I want for this country. I don't want to see it become a satellite state dictated to by anyone else. As I've said before I could ramble on and on about why I dislike the EU, the Eurozone, the Euro Group, The Troika, whatever you want to call it, it's the same thing and why I don't wish to see us a part of it any more but that would just bore people more than I alrady have ;)

 

[rigsby]

After some on here tried to smear James Dyson with selective facts, for the crime of being a top British and more importantly independent business man who supports Brexit. It now turns out he is in the top 3 tax payers in Britain......Including business tax.

The left need to start listen to the Dysons of the world and every single one of us would be better off because of the huge amount of tax we could collect.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

What an incredible roller coaster this is proving to be! This morning I was starting to accept the possibility that May could get her deal through. On Tuesday I was seeing the Cooper/Boles amendment being very narrowly defeated and the Brady amendment just getting passed. This I thought would give an indication to the EU of something we really wanted and more importantly something which could pass the HoC. In seeing that, the EU may have been willing to do something about the backstop, even though they have denied the possibility of its renegotiation. You could see Spaceman Spif and Lord Football's final minute negotiation theory suddenly sprout some legs.
By this afternoon, if you believe the Irish, my whole picture had changed again. IIUC, for any chance of re-opening the withdrawal agreement it would require unanimity from the remaining 27. An Irish veto would effectively sink that avenue. Unless, of course you believe this all a cunning plan by the Irish/EU to, in the end, achieve the aim of keeping the UK in the EU?! It's at this point my head starts hurting.
Logically, seeing the chances of May's deal reduced (to zero?) by inability to amend the backstop, has the Cooper/Boles amendment a better chance of passing? God only knows....... .............roll on Tuesday!

 

[Blueronron]

After some on here tried to smear James Dyson with selective facts, for the crime of being a top British and more importantly independent business man who supports Brexit. It now turns out he is in the top 3 tax payers in Britain......Including business tax.

The left need to start listen to the Dysons of the world and every single one of us would be better off because of the huge amount of tax we could collect.

And yet he wants out, and still takes EU subs on his farm which he is opposed too

Strange rule by someone so strongly opposed to EU

 

[blues exile]

If Dyson is held up as a model of business morality we are in more trouble than we thought.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You have to be careful what you wish for! Here, the gilets jaunes are preparing to launch candidates in the forthcoming European Elections. I suppose it is somewhat close to a grass roots direct democracy movement. I await with interest to see what kind of a programme they are going to collect around. Previously it has suggested that it was a spontaeneous, non-political movement, without leaders. I strongly suspect that it will end up a bit like Brexit, where members know what they don't like but find themselves completely divided over what they do like. The trouble with all these people who are highly critical of the present democratic system, which they criticise for the lack of direct democracy, is that they can't offer a practical alternative. With all its faults the present system is hard to better and like the EU, would be better reformed than destroyed.

Only about 7/8 candidates so far I believe.The person who'll be happiest they're standing will be Macron.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...eland-stresses-will-not-yield-brexit-backstop

Blame the Irish (if you like).

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Only about 7/8 candidates so far I believe.The person who'll be happiest they're standing will be Macron.

and the most worried? Le Pen has been rubbing her hands with glee at the turmoil and discomfort it has been causing the government and the benefit her party has gained from the situation (I suspect a good proportion of gilets jaunes are sympathetic to the RN (the old FN). Mélenchon (extreme left) has also been encouraging the protests (and there are certainly members of his France Insoumise involved in the gilets jaunes protests), I think he views it as the first step in the forthcoming revolution. Neither, I would imagine, will be over happy about gilets jaunes (who are non-political) candidates in the European elections, with the strong risk of them gaining a lot of the populist vote, which would normally go to their party's

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

and the most worried? Le Pen has been rubbing her hands with glee at the turmoil and discomfort it has been causing the government and the benefit her party has gained from the situation (I suspect a good proportion of gilets jaunes are sympathetic to the RN (the old FN). Mélenchon (extreme left) has also been encouraging the protests (and there are certainly members of his France Insoumise involved in the gilets jaunes protests), I think he views it as the first step in the forthcoming revolution. Neither, I would imagine, will be over happy about gilets jaunes (who are non-political) candidates in the European elections, with the strong risk of them gaining a lot of the populist vote, which would normally go to their party's

You'll remember I quoted those figures from TF1 before Xmas which put Les Gillets Jaunes support at 40% FN and 20% for Mélenchon.I make you right about MLP being worried.Be interesting to see how the European elections turn out in France.