Brexit negotiations thread

[Bielzibubz]

They do. It's very simple for those that wish to see. Unfortunately some are just too blind to see. The EU is a failing debt ridden political and financial mess. The sooner it collapses the better.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Well, negotiate your way around that one.....................good luck Theresa!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=294428431221862

Just watched this elsewhere and it shows very clearly that the potential breakthrough in thinking among Tory rebels is a total waste of our time.
If the Tories agonise for weeks and come up with something that has already been rejected by the EU and UK negotiators then this is of no benefit at all.
Clock is ticking and government still failing.

 

[blues exile]

I seem to remember coming across an early version of the horseshoe theory when I was studing American politics at degree level back in the early/mid 70's.Interestingly,the conventional wisdom (then) was that there was little differnce between the Democratic/Republican parties in the US.Don't think anyone would argue that now.Plus ça change and all that.

The Horseshoe Theory is superficially plausible but on examination to scrutiny falls apart. Its appeal is to self styled centrists or moderates who sound very reasonable but who basically have accepted the neo Lib consensus and don't want to rock the boat. It obviously suits them to ignore the fundamental differences between the aims of the left and the right. The attempt to portray the Nazi regime as in some way having anything in common with the socialist agenda is of course utterly disengenuous, equally so as Hitler incorporating the word 'socialist' into his party's name. You can fool some of the people some of the time etc.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

They do. It's very simple for those that wish to see. Unfortunately some are just too blind to see. The EU is a failing debt ridden political and financial mess. The sooner it collapses the better.

.........sometimes the mask slips.
Incidently, before BBC2 last night I gave a quick view to the start of the video you recommended earlier but I think I got the general drift. Of course it's worrying and shocking to see the power and influence of some lobbyists. There appears to be far too little money invested in defending individuals or groups aginst their influence. The programme should be congratulated for exposing the way they work.........knowing their modus operandi at leasts gives us a better chance of countering their arguments and power.
Then of course you adopt this as another tool with which to attack the EU. Shock, horror their are powerful business lobbyists exerting their power over the EU! I suppose the argument goes, if we leave that 'corrupt' organisation we'll be free of them......... you are joking??? I would claim, in a Britain solitary in the world, we'll be so desperate for trade deals, that we'd be even more under their influence

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

The Horseshoe Theory is superficially plausible but on examination to scrutiny falls apart. Its appeal is to self styled centrists or moderates who sound very reasonable but who basically have accepted the neo Lib consensus and don't want to rock the boat. It obviously suits them to ignore the fundamental differences between the aims of the left and the right. The attempt to portray the Nazi regime as in some way having anything in common with the socialist agenda is of course utterly disengenuous, equally so as Hitler incorporating the word 'socialist' into his party's name. You can fool some of the people some of the time etc.

Of course I am willing to concede to better historians than myself but in 1930's Germany didn't the extreme left (communists) prefer the Nazis, to working with the Social Democrats, who they loathed?

 

[rigsby]

Not you obviously. In a sense wishing, as you clearly do, to leave with no deal, you don't see any problem with sticking the proverbial finger up (two in the UK). Keeping as good a relationship with the EU as possible could be thought of as important, especially as we are required, over the following years, to negotiate a future trade relationship with the bloc.......... may be you're not fussed about that? Or perhaps you are still persuaded that the EU needs us more than we need them?

I have never needed persuasion, I understand basic mathematics.

850,000 German cars is a huge market and 2 million German jobs rely on it. If they put 60% on British lamb, We can do the same to their cars.

If we did, rather than burning their own capital as you know the Germans prefer burning other peoples cities...….The Belgians must be getting nervous. This time they wont get away with giving them a nice lunch and saying "Paris is that way".

That's why the smug boys in Brussels are now hinting at compromise, they will offer a delay because operation 'Foot drag' has gone badly wrong. Rather than the expected lets just remain. It turns out us Brexit boys and girls are made of stronger stuff......Leave means LEAVE If they don't want a deal we can all live with that.

Even the Labour party are acknowledging that. Which is why they are now suddenly pushing for a crap deal to pressure Mrs May because they will never put the country before their own greed, politically and more importantly to them, financially......Whos the only people in the world who will employ the Labour shadow cabinet after they lose the next GE........That's right the EU, a Tax payer funded savings corrupt club for Europe's failed politicians. Not just pay and the best pension of all but your palm gets greased with even bigger amounts because EU projects are massive, have no scrutiny and when they fail or the money runs out, its the tax payers in the same few countries who foot the bill. If we stayed the bills will only get bigger and the enevatable divorce would be more costly and more painful.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I have never needed persuasion, I understand basic mathematics.

850,000 German cars is a huge market and 2 million German jobs rely on it. If they put 60% on British lamb, We can do the same to their cars.

If we did, rather than burning their own capital as you know the Germans prefer burning other peoples cities...….The Belgians must be getting nervous. This time they wont get away with giving them a nice lunch and saying "Paris is that way".

That's why the smug boys in Brussels are now hinting at compromise, they will offer a delay because operation 'Foot drag' has gone badly wrong. Rather than the expected lets just remain. It turns out us Brexit boys and girls are made of stronger stuff......Leave means LEAVE If they don't want a deal we can all live with that.

Even the Labour party are acknowledging that. Which is why they are now suddenly pushing for a crap deal to pressure Mrs May because they will never put the country before their own greed, politically and more importantly to them, financially......Whos the only people in the world who will employ the Labour shadow cabinet after they lose the next GE........That's right the EU, a Tax payer funded savings corrupt club for Europe's failed politicians. Not just pay and the best pension of all but your palm gets greased with even bigger amounts because EU projects are massive, have no scrutiny and when they fail or the money runs out, its the tax payers in the same few countries who foot the bill. If we stayed the bills will only get bigger and the enevatable divorce would be more costly and more painful.

I got as far as this and then decided it really wasn't worth reading any more.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Metro today:

The prime minister last night told her MPs at the private meeting she would back an amendment requiring the backstop to be replaced by ‘alternative arrangements’.

Boris Johnson asked what ‘alternative arrangements’ meant. ‘We won’t know unless you support us Boris,’ Mrs May replied, to cheers from the room.


What the **** is wrong with these people? A PM telling her MPs to back a new plan that doesn't yet exist. Incompetent charlatans.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Just watched this elsewhere and it shows very clearly that the potential breakthrough in thinking among Tory rebels is a total waste of our time.
If the Tories agonise for weeks and come up with something that has already been rejected by the EU and UK negotiators then this is of no benefit at all.
Clock is ticking and government still failing.

LOST IN AMENDMENTS
Rather like when you arrive near the final episode of a good TV thriller and too many red herrings suddenly appear. I though I had some vague idea of the plot.......now I'm not so sure! Of course, John Bercow could be decisive in his rôle as 'puppet-master.' I don't think I'm going to break my head anymore, I'll just let the results of the votes this evening wash over me, in the hope that some clarity will emerge through the mist.
Concerning the video I posted of the EU's deputy negotiator. I was on the point of sleeping last night when I believe I heard Katya Adler suggest that if the EU were facing the prospect of a no-deal they may be willing to budge at the last minute. This of course will give encouragement to those who believe the EU will blink first.......................chicken, chicken, chicken!

 

[Bielzibubz]

.........sometimes the mask slips.
Incidently, before BBC2 last night I gave a quick view to the start of the video you recommended earlier but I think I got the general drift. Of course it's worrying and shocking to see the power and influence of some lobbyists. There appears to be far too little money invested in defending individuals or groups aginst their influence. The programme should be congratulated for exposing the way they work.........knowing their modus operandi at leasts gives us a better chance of countering their arguments and power.
Then of course you adopt this as another tool with which to attack the EU. Shock, horror their are powerful business lobbyists exerting their power over the EU! I suppose the argument goes, if we leave that 'corrupt' organisation we'll be free of them......... you are joking??? I would claim, in a Britain solitary in the world, we'll be so desperate for trade deals, that we'd be even more under their influence

Do you really think it's just a few corporate lobbyists that exert power and influence within the corridors of the Brussels? They are just the tip of the iceberg. You have to look far deeper if you want to get to the detail of who (individuals and groups) actually wields the power that dictates the direction of the EU and it's dictatorial philosophy over other member states. That's just one aspect we'll be free from.

And to pick you up on your jingoistic 'Britain solitary' comment. We will not be alone. We will have friends all over the world that'll be more than happy to trade with UK PLC. We'll continue to have strong trade links with business already within the EU. We'll continue to export and import goods to and from countries all over the world.

Still, you carry on believing all is rosy in the EU camp. I'm done trying to convince those with a closed mindset that they ought to look further than the end of their noses to see exactly what's going on around them. Some of us do, some clearly dont.

And on that note...............................................

 

[Bielzibubz]

I got as far as this and then decided it really wasn't worth reading any more.

And that may be part of the problem. An unwillingness to read past some uncomfortable words and at least try and understand what's being said.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Do you really think it's just a few corporate lobbyists that exert power and influence within the corridors of the Brussels? They are just the tip of the iceberg. You have to look far deeper if you want to get to the detail of who (individuals and groups) actually wields the power that dictates the direction of the EU and it's dictatorial philosophy over other member states. That's just one aspect we'll be free from.

And to pick you up on your jingoistic 'Britain solitary' comment. We will not be alone. We will have friends all over the world that'll be more than happy to trade with UK PLC. We'll continue to have strong trade links with business already within the EU. We'll continue to export and import goods to and from countries all over the world.

Still, you carry on believing all is rosy in the EU camp. I'm done trying to convince those with a closed mindset that they ought to look further than the end of their noses to see exactly what's going on around them. Some of us do, some clearly dont.

And on that note...............................................

I think, regarding 'a closed mindset,' you need to look in the mirror. Not only do you seek the withdrawal of the UK from the EU, you also seek the destruction of the latter.

 

[blues exile]

I got as far as this and then decided it really wasn't worth reading any more.

And that post of course reveals the real reason for such irrational Europhobia.

 

[Bielzibubz]

LOST IN AMENDMENTS
Rather like when you arrive near the final episode of a good TV thriller and too many red herrings suddenly appear. I though I had some vague idea of the plot.......now I'm not so sure! Of course, John Bercow could be decisive in his rôle as 'puppet-master.' I don't think I'm going to break my head anymore, I'll just let the results of the votes this evening wash over me, in the hope that some clarity will emerge through the mist.
Concerning the video I posted of the EU's deputy negotiator. I was on the point of sleeping last night when I believe I heard Katya Adler suggest that if the EU were facing the prospect of a no-deal they may be willing to budge at the last minute. This of course will give encouragement to those who believe the EU will blink first.......................chicken, chicken, chicken!

You make a good point. Why would you ever enter any negotiation without first making it plain that you are willing to walk away without a deal in place should your opposition make those negotiations impossible to continue with? This has always been about brinkmanship. About who will compromise the most and who will back down first. The dilemma for the EU is that they cannot countenance or come to terms with the UK leaving the EU first and foremost. It derails all that it stands for and all that's it's been building these past 60 years so they have to do all they can to avoid that happening. The problem for them is we are prepared to walk away, or at least we should be.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Metro today:

The prime minister last night told her MPs at the private meeting she would back an amendment requiring the backstop to be replaced by ‘alternative arrangements’.

Boris Johnson asked what ‘alternative arrangements’ meant. ‘We won’t know unless you support us Boris,’ Mrs May replied, to cheers from the room.


What the **** is wrong with these people? A PM telling her MPs to back a new plan that doesn't yet exist. Incompetent charlatans.

Hmm... amendment requiring the existing backstop to be replaced by alternative arrangements (following which the UK Parliament would explicitly back the Withdrawal Agreement) which would require negotiation with Brussels as to what those arrangements would ultimately look like but the very fact of the amendment being passed would show Brussels that this is what is needed to gain UK Parliamentary approval and thereby strengthen the PM's hand in those negotiations (because Brussels has been constantly saying 'we dont know what the UK wants', meaning parliament not the PM or negotiators, and this amendment would blow that position out of the water at last as I've been saying all along)..... ....is discussed at a meeting of government MPs and the PM asks them to back this amendment. The harder Brexiteers want to know whether the 'alternative arrangements' will be sufficient to gain their support for the WA, as the amendment commits them to, and the PM responds that she cant be clear on that point until she has discussed and agreed (negotiated) them with Brussels but she is clear what people need to see - a time limit or mechanism for the UK to decide to exit the backstop.

I'm not sure how you make that out to be incompetence in this situation, other than because you're not quite as good at this political analysis lark as you like to think you are - and compensate for your lack of understanding with large doses of confirmation bias.

 

[Bielzibubz]

I think, regarding 'a closed mindset,' you need to look in the mirror. Not only do you seek the withdrawal of the UK from the EU, you also seek the destruction of the latter.

Destruction huh? Again, jingoistic rhetoric. This isn't WW3 you know.

I'd like to see the whole thing collapse. That's not the same. All I'd like to see each individual independent sovereign nation free from it's political, judicial and financial influence.

 

[blues exile]

Destruction huh? Again, jingoistic rhetoric. This isn't WW3 you know.

I'd like to see the whole thing collapse. That's not the same. All I'd like to see each individual independent sovereign nation free from it's political, judicial and financial influence.

Oh, that wonderful pre EU era that saw all the major and some minor European nations incessantly fighting over everything from plundering Africa to engaging in two world wars just to see who was the biggest and most powerful. Yes, let's bring back that golden age, what a wonderful idea.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Hmm... amendment requiring the existing backstop to be replaced by alternative arrangements (following which the UK Parliament would explicitly back the Withdrawal Agreement) which would require negotiation with Brussels as to what those arrangements would ultimately look like but the very fact of the amendment being passed would show Brussels that this is what is needed to gain UK Parliamentary approval and thereby strengthen the PM's hand in those negotiations (because Brussels has been constantly saying 'we dont know what the UK wants', meaning parliament not the PM or negotiators, and this amendment would blow that position out of the water at last as I've been saying all along)..... ....is discussed at a meeting of government MPs and the PM asks them to back this amendment. The harder Brexiteers want to know whether the 'alternative arrangements' will be sufficient to gain their support for the WA, as the amendment commits them to, and the PM responds that she cant be clear on that point until she has discussed and agreed (negotiated) them with Brussels but she is clear what people need to see - a time limit or mechanism for the UK to decide to exit the backstop.

I'm not sure how you make that out to be incompetence in this situation, other than because you're not quite as good at this political analysis lark as you like to think you are - and compensate for your lack of understanding with large doses of confirmation bias.

What 'alternative arrangements?
Johnson asked a valid question:
What 'alternative arrangements?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Oh, that wonderful pre EU era that saw all the major and some minor European nations incessantly fighting over everything from plundering Africa to engaging in two world wars just to see who was the biggest and most powerful. Yes, let's bring back that golden age, what a wonderful idea.

Yes, that does sound like a wonderful idea. I'm sure thats why everyone voted Brexit. Lets have lots of lovely wars, big up racism, reopen the workhouses and bring back capital punishment! Yay! That's a Tory voters dream isnt it! Have a day off mate...

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

What 'alternative arrangements?
Johnson asked a valid question:
What 'alternative arrangements?

Try re-reading my post and have a good think. You ought to find that you don't need to post the above question, because my answer is clear.