Brexit negotiations thread

[Benfleet A1]

PMQ's, this should be fun.

 

[GBJ]

We did not have the ability to change or amend freedom of movement in any way. But that aside, the point is that the main reason for voting to leave the European union was to bring sovereignty over everything back to the UK. People didn't agree to that going across to Brussels in the first place.

We had the ability to deport immigrants who’d been here for more than 3 months, but didn’t have jobs, and weren’t paying into the system.

A lot of voters didn’t know that.

The government can't govern so a General Election has always resulted in those circumstances.

Of course. I’m just wondering why you’re so keen on championing an election, considering that despite the incompetence of the current government, there is a very real possibility, that an election could get a lot worse for remainers, with a figure like Boris or Gove being elected.

If you have no intention of voting Labour then Labour potentially losing is not your problem. Labour under Corbyn got 40% against a functioning Tory Party, a new GE would be against a Tory Party who have collapsed. The Tories would be forced to get their **** together so that has to be good news for Tory voters.

The collapsed Tory party, still hold more sway in the polls than Corbyn does.

Granted you can’t trust polls, but that in itself is very telling.

 

[GBJ]

Absolutely not

Don’t you work at the Home Office?

Shouldn’t you know these things?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Absolutely not

My Mum took my kids to see panto and the Cliffs two years running and apparently both times Frank Bruno failed to remember his lines. Everyone forgave him though.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

We had the ability to deport immigrants who’d been here for more than 3 months, but didn’t have jobs, and weren’t paying into the system.

A lot of voters didn’t know that.



Of course. I’m just wondering why you’re so keen on championing an election, considering that despite the incompetence of the current government, there is a very real possibility, that an election could get a lot worse for remainers, with a figure like Boris or Gove being elected.



The collapsed Tory party, still hold more sway in the polls than Corbyn does.

Granted you can’t trust polls, but that in itself is very telling.

Immigration. Agreed.

GE - May government is unable to function and if to get a functioning government we have to risk Johnson or Gove so be it.

Polls - depends what ones you want to go with but I don't really trust any of them. Labour polled 20 points behind in April 2017 and were 2 behind in the June election. Polls don't put me off.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

PMQ's, this should be fun.

Should be, but I bet she is in the same mode of blame everyone else and burry her head in the sand as per every other week.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

There are big (and really quite obvious) issues with that so-called ability you refer to GBJ. And yes, I do know about these things. But I don't wish to get into an immigration debate.

My point was a simple one - sovereignty (not immigration or even sovereignty about immigration) was the major reason for people voting for Brexit and to 'take back control'. We can argue to the cows come home about what powers we did or didnt have in any particular area or about the performance of one UK government or another, or about policy. But none of that will change the fact that for many they did not want or agree to being governed in any way from anywhere else other than the UK. It's quite a simple point really.

 

[GBJ]

Should be, but I bet she is in the same mode of blame everyone else and burry her head in the sand as per every other week.

True, but unfortunately Corbyn doesn’t have the nous to take her apart, piece by piece.

I’m not sure what’s worse, a PM who’s beyond competence, or an opposition leader who can’t topple said PM

 

[blues exile]

We did not have the ability to change or amend freedom of movement in any way. But that aside, the point is that the main reason for voting to leave the European union was to bring sovereignty over everything back to the UK. People didn't agree to that going across to Brussels in the first place.

This is 2019. 'Sovereignty' is much more limited now than it was in the 19th century. Nations have to abide by all sorts of limitations which restrict their power to do as they please, unless you are USA, China or Russia. It's a Brexiteers' fantasy that on leaving the EU the UK can suddenly go its own way and not be bound by international agreements on every subject under the sun. Reality will be so painful if we do leave and the very people who have been deceived into clamouring to leave will be the ones who suffer most.

 

[GBJ]

There are big (and really quite obvious) issues with that so-called ability you refer to GBJ. And yes, I do know about these things. But I don't wish to get into an immigration debate.

To clarify, do you agree or disagree that we had the power, under section 28 of the EU’s Citizens Directive, to deport immigrants, who fell below basic expectation levels?

We don’t need to go into the reasons why that never happened, if you don’t want to.

My point lwas a simple one - sovereignty (not immigration or even sovereignty about immigration) was the major reason for people voting for Brexit and to 'take back control'. We can argue to the cows come home about what powers we did or didnt have in any particular area or about the performance of one UK government or another, or about policy. But none of that will change the fact that for many they did not want or agree to being governed in any way from anywhere else other than the UK. It's quite a simple point really.

I agree with that, I just don’t agree that Sovereignty was a bigger factor than immigration.

 

[blues exile]

True, but unfortunately Corbyn doesn’t have the nous to take her apart, piece by piece.

I’m not sure what’s worse, a PM who’s beyond competence, or an opposition leader who can’t topple said PM

How do you propose Labour 'topple' her when they haven't got the numbers?.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

This is 2019. 'Sovereignty' is much more limited now than it was in the 19th century. Nations have to abide by all sorts of limitations which restrict their power to do as they please, unless you are USA, China or Russia. It's a Brexiteers' fantasy that on leaving the EU the UK can suddenly go its own way and not be bound by international agreements on every subject under the sun. Reality will be so painful if we do leave and the very people who have been deceived into clamouring to leave will be the ones who suffer most.

That's all a load of cobblers, I'm afraid. Who mentioned not abiding by international law and norms? What's that got to do with Brussels deciding on our international trade policy, data protection rules or anything else? Nobody has been deceived and the idea that this country will collapse into the sea and perish without governance from Brussels is preposterous.

 

[GBJ]

How do you propose Labour 'topple' her when they haven't got the numbers?.

Oh I don’t propose it. That’s not my problem.

I’m just stating that an opposition leader worth their salt would have an unbelievable approval rating, clamour from the general public for their leadership & would have made the current regime look foolish everytime they met for debate. Corbyn has failed on all three points.

Also, Still waiting for you to reveal what Corbyn’s “very clear and specific proposals for proper negotiations” are. Thanks.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

True, but unfortunately Corbyn doesn’t have the nous to take her apart, piece by piece.

I’m not sure what’s worse, a PM who’s beyond competence, or an opposition leader who can’t topple said PM

The Tories have been toppled - £1bn to form a government, losing 3 votes in one day, found in contempt of Parliament, lost a vote 2.5 years in the making by the biggest defeat in history. Cameron's fix term legislation means May can ignore historical president and common decency and just sit there in power but unable to function,

They have been toppled by Cameron set it up so that they can ignore that.

 

[blues exile]

That's all a load of cobblers, I'm afraid. Who mentioned not abiding by international law and norms? What's that got to do with Brussels deciding on our international trade policy, data protection rules or anything else? Nobody has been deceived and the idea that this country will collapse into the sea and perish without governance from Brussels is preposterous.

Perhaps you would care to define 'sovereignty'. Does this centre on 'taking back control of our borders, our money and our laws' in any meaningful way. Nations are all interdependent these days and a small offshore island that doesn't produce much of any value, other than dealing heavily in the arms trade and reliant on banking and insurance and still thinking it's a world power is in for a very rude awakening should Brexit go ahead. And of course the powerless and vulnerable (many who voted leave because of the way the immigration issue was exploited by the leavers) will be the ones to suffer the worst of it because the fat cats will always find ways to get the cream.

 

[GBJ]

The Tories have been toppled - £1bn to form a government, losing 3 votes in one day, found in contempt of Parliament, lost a vote 2.5 years in the making by the biggest defeat in history. Cameron's fix term legislation means May can ignore historical president and common decency and just sit there in power but unable to function,

They have been toppled by Cameron set it up so that they can ignore that.

And yet, despite all that (which I agree with btw) Corbyn still isn’t favourite to win a GE, and is still largely despised by vast swathes of the general public. lols

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

No plans have been made for a no deal. Yes we should have had a government that took a year to negotiate a deal and if that wasn't possible then take 18 months to put everything in place to leave without a deal.
We have two and a half months now and the government are still talking about tweeking their deal and trying again. They haven't planned for no deal and are not focusing on that now either.

Do you honestly believe that the Government (and the Civil Service) have not been preparing for No Deal. You're deluded if you think that.

 

[blues exile]

Oh I don’t propose it. That’s not my problem.

I’m just stating that an opposition leader worth their salt would have an unbelievable approval rating, clamour from the general public for their leadership & would have made the current regime look foolish everytime they met for debate. Corbyn has failed on all three points.

Also, Still waiting for you to reveal what Corbyn’s “very clear and specific proposals for proper negotiations” are. Thanks.

A customs union for a start.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Do you honestly believe that the Government (and the Civil Service) have not been preparing for No Deal. You're deluded if you think that.

They have a £14m contract with a ferry company who have no ferries, for a route not fit for ferries, with a company worth £660 who lied to potential investors and who have previously liquidated companies with massive unpaid debts, the Tory Councillors in Ramsgate say they have not been consulted, Ostend authorities have not signed off agreements.
Chris Grayling insists that this all meets with his checks and balances.

So no, I'm pretty sure I'm not deluded.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

And yet, despite all that (which I agree with btw) Corbyn still isn’t favourite to win a GE, and is still largely despised by vast swathes of the general public. lols

So we are told yes.