Brexit negotiations thread

[GBJ]

Labour has very clear and specific proposals for proper negotiations which unlike the Tories they would approach in a spirit of cooperation and constructiveness.

Can you elaborate further?

What are Corbyn’s clear & specific proposals?

I’ve heard this notion time & time again, that Corbyn could have done better than May in negotiations. I’ve never seen anyone actually state how.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

So the end game is another referendum?

I see.

I’m still not sure why you think the ‘remaining’ option would be put onto the ballot though? That ship has democratically sailed.

Would you be content with the voting options being Corbyn’s deal or no deal?

No the end game is not another referendum but so much will have changed since the last one that if Labour negotiated a deal it would look very different to a Tory so putting that to the public seems logical.

Having Remain on the ballot would be because the Tories have failed to get Brexit done and dusted in the timescale promised and some Leave voters may decide it's not actually worth the continued limbo in the hope of finding a Leave version that works.

 

[Sandbach Shrimper]

The problem throughout the whole process has been we have a Remain-dominated government and parliament, and a Remainer as PM. They're trying to implement something they don't really want, which is why they can't agree on anything.

The referendum was a vote against the establishment but it's now the establishment who are 'taking back control'. We need MPs to start representing the people who vote for them rather than their own interests, but I won't hold my breath.

If only we'd had a proper Brexiteer in charge all along.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Whilst I’m not necessarily an advocate of leaving with no deal, it seems to me that it’s our only option.

Considering that, as you said, it’s unlikely that anybody will get a majority deal through Parliament, I see only one options left, which rightly or wrongly, would be the only democratic thing to do.

Same issue though, no deal won't get through Parliament.

 

[Member]

Last post from me on here because think I'm going to take a SZ sabbatical.

I'm not really keen on a second referendum, at least I wasn't when the options weren't clear and exceeded two (Deal, No Deal, Remain ?)

But we're clearly at an impasse, and if it really is the case that remain or no deal exit are the only two options, and that some kind of deal of any form cannot be achieved within parliament, then the only solutions I can see are:

1. Parliament vote on remain/no deal exit. This would result in remain (most likely) and would be very damaging to the country (in terms of public opinion of parliament, rather than in terms of the actual outcome)
2. A General Election with clear stated decision for Brexit by each party. But we'd still most likely end up in a hung parliament and no clear strategy
3. A second referendum, with the public now voting on two clear outcomes (with the benefit of a better understanding of the consequences of each)

Really does feel like the last option is the only one with most legitimacy to progress the Brexit process.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

What struck me about the reaction to the vote last night was the jubilance of both camps of protesters on College Green (and by various MP's eager to face the cameras tbf.)

Clearly,both leave and remain can't have won. It's going to be an interesting couple of weeks.

It did seem quite bizarre both sides cheering the defeat of the vote. I do understand that one side didn't like her half in half out deal, and the other side thinks the defeat brings them closer to a 2nd referendum. But it was still weird as I've never seen both sides cheering after a result.

 

[GBJ]

I wonder how many Brexiteers back in 2013 would sit in their living rooms thinking "curse the EU and its undemocratic processes". Just a thought that past mind as I surveyed the carnage of last night..... anyway I digress.

Let’s not pretend that the issue sprang up overnight.

Many Brexiteers voted due to their concerns about immigration.

A lot of them had been trying to voice their concern over this, for years, only to be shot down, ignored & labelled racist/xenophobic/nazis.

I’m in no doubt, if the government had addressed these growing concerns back then, (as they had the power to do so) Brexit wouldn’t be happening right now.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

One major and inescapable problem with your option. The EU will NOT negotiate any deal that sees the UK walk away from Brussels with any more concessions that those given to TM. They have stated categorically that there will be no more negotiating to make the UK's exit any easier. JC would be in the same, if not worse, position than TM currently finds herself. It's a fact of life that in any negotiations you have to have red lines in place and you have to be prepared to walk away from those negotiations if those red lines are met or passed.

The referendum wasn't on the understanding that DC would enact the result. It was on the understanding that the elected Government and Parliament would. Who as a person is immaterial. Your blind allegiance to a political cause and your hatred of the Tory party and TM I think is clouding your judgement.

EU have concluded negotiations with May. That is not necessarily the case with a different government.

To suggest that Cameron would have come up with the same deal as May I think is incorrect, for a start he wouldn't have to appease the DUP. If he had the decency to stick around the deal would likely have been done and dusted in plenty of time.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Let’s not pretend that the issue sprang up overnight.

Many Brexiteers voted due to their concerns about immigration.

A lot of them had been trying to voice their concern over this, for years, only to be shot down, ignored & labelled racist/xenophobic/nazis.

I’m in no doubt, if the government had addressed these growing concerns back then, (as they had the power to do so) Brexit wouldn’t be happening right now.

There is a strong argument that austerity is a big route to the Leave vote.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

The problem throughout the whole process has been we have a Remain-dominated government and parliament, and a Remainer as PM. They're trying to implement something they don't really want, which is why they can't agree on anything.

The referendum was a vote against the establishment but it's now the establishment who are 'taking back control'. We need MPs to start representing the people who vote for them rather than their own interests, but I won't hold my breath.

If only we'd had a proper Brexiteer in charge all along.

Sounds like a strong argument for a General Election so people have the opportunity to vote for Leave candidates.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Last post from me on here because think I'm going to take a SZ sabbatical.

I'm not really keen on a second referendum, at least I wasn't when the options weren't clear and exceeded two (Deal, No Deal, Remain ?)

But we're clearly at an impasse, and if it really is the case that remain or no deal exit are the only two options, and that some kind of deal of any form cannot be achieved within parliament, then the only solutions I can see are:

1. Parliament vote on remain/no deal exit. This would result in remain (most likely) and would be very damaging to the country
2. A General Election with clear stated decision for Brexit by each party. But we'd still most likely end up in a hung parliament and no clear strategy
3. A second referendum, with the public now voting on two clear outcomes (with the benefit of a better understanding of the consequences of each)

Really does feel like the last option is the only one with most legitimacy to progress the Brexit process.

As I said before, that shouldn't happen. The only one's that want that are remainers like yourself who know remain would win a new vote. Democracy would be tarnished and for about the next 50 years reneging on the first result would be used in arguments between parties, and we would never trust a result stands vote again. There would be Millions of unhappy people if a 2nd referendum were called. There would be riots all around the Country, much worse and bigger than the poll tax riots. It can't be allowed to happen.
We need to let it play out with TM going back to the EU and hopefully getting more on the table. The Brexit lawyers have said they can give more if they want to, but they're playing hardball. They was preying her deal went through with time running out used as blackmail. Now they have to think again and help TM. The leaving on the 29th March will be extended. Let's see what she comes back with. That seems to be our best hope.

 

[GBJ]

No the end game is not another referendum but so much will have changed since the last one that if Labour negotiated a deal it would look very different to a Tory so putting that to the public seems logical.

So like I said, another referendum then?

I get it though, I just wish you’d be honest about it. It wouldn’t matter what “deal” Corbyn could negotiate, because you, like every other remainer, would vote Remain, regardless.

And you believe, just as I do, that remain would win, which would, in your minds, put this whole sorry saga to bed.

Having Remain on the ballot would be because the Tories have failed to get Brexit done and dusted in the timescale promised and some Leave voters may decide it's not actually worth the continued limbo in the hope of finding a Leave version that works.

One more referendum. Just one more. Problem is, what if the result was 52-48 in favour of remain.

Best of three?

 

[GBJ]

There is a strong argument that austerity is a big route to the Leave vote.

People didn’t vote for Brexit to end austerity. If that were the case, they could have done so by ousting the Tories in the GE.

Immigration was one of, if not the biggest factor in voting for Brexit

 

[GBJ]

Sounds like a strong argument for a General Election so people have the opportunity to vote for Leave candidates.

See, this is what I don’t understand. You, and many remainers, believe that a GE would be best for business, as it would possibly put Corbyn in the driving seat.

Only, he’s still one of the most unelectable men to lead the opposition, of all time. Even with the Tories being such a ****show, he still can’t curry favour to lead the polls.

So why do you think pitting him, against a leaver, would be so fruitful?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

People didn’t vote for Brexit to end austerity. If that were the case, they could have done so by ousting the Tories in the GE.

Immigration was one of, if not the biggest factor in voting for Brexit

Actually, the biggest single reason by far is quite simple: sovereignty. Everything else is only a reason in the context of sovereignty - i.e. the ability of our country to make its own choices, laws etc without outside interference or overlordship.

 

[GBJ]

Actually, the biggest single reason by far is quite simple: sovereignty. Everything else is only a reason in the context of sovereignty - i.e. the ability of our country to make its own choices, laws etc without outside interference or overlordship.

With regards to immigration, we already had the law & power to be tougher. We just never implemented it.

Many people confused that, with lack of Sovereignty

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

With regards to immigration, we already had the law & power to be tougher. We just never implemented it.

Many people confused that, with lack of Sovereignty

We did not have the ability to change or amend freedom of movement in any way. But that aside, the point is that the main reason for voting to leave the European union was to bring sovereignty over everything back to the UK. People didn't agree to that going across to Brussels in the first place.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

See, this is what I don’t understand. You, and many remainers, believe that a GE would be best for business, as it would possibly put Corbyn in the driving seat.

Only, he’s still one of the most unelectable men to lead the opposition, of all time. Even with the Tories being such a ****show, he still can’t curry favour to lead the polls.

So why do you think pitting him, against a leaver, would be so fruitful?

The government can't govern so a General Election has always resulted in those circumstances.

If you have no intention of voting Labour then Labour potentially losing is not your problem. Labour under Corbyn got 40% against a functioning Tory Party, a new GE would be against a Tory Party who have collapsed. The Tories would be forced to get their **** together so that has to be good news for Tory voters.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

With regards to immigration, we already had the law & power to be tougher. We just never implemented it.

Many people confused that, with lack of Sovereignty

Absolutely

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Absolutely

Absolutely not