Brexit negotiations thread

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Ya'll could not wait to see this deal, Brexit and the Tory party fail could you. Clearly party politics, getting a GE and giving a bloody nose to TM is more important that any democratic process.

So what now. May won't resign. New referendum? Peoples vote on issues explained to them by proven liars? Leave with no deal? Back to the EU and try and get concessions they will NOT give?

Come on, I'd like to hear some answers from those that think they know how. How would YOU bring Brexit to fruition like the country voted for?

.........and there in a nutshell, you have your problem, exactly what Brexit did the country vote for????? A solution? God only knows, perhaps we should force Cameron back as PM, after all it was he who got us into this unholy s**t.

 

[Bielzibubz]

.........and there in a nutshell, you have your problem, exactly what Brexit did the country vote for????? A solution? God only knows, perhaps we should force Cameron back as PM, after all it was he who got us into this unholy s**t.

The country voted to leave. It's that simple. That's what was on the ballot paper. Not a leave if we get this, remain if we don't get that. It was a simple yes or no and DC explained that in one of his last televised speeches before the vote went to the public. To now turn around and say 'well, sorry, we didn't know what we were voting for' or 'sorry, we've changed our minds now we know more' is immaterial and if it does now go to a second referendum or peoples vote, whatever you want to call it, it demolishes the whole concept of political democracy.

Incidentally, the whole point of a democratic vote is letting everyone vote on what they 'think' is best for the whole group at that time and what they think is based on either what they know or what they're told prior to that vote. The result of a democratic vote is not decided on or overturned 6, 12 18 or even 36 months later because what those people thought at the time either turned out to be wrong or they were misguided in their beliefs.

 

[Holy Joe]

We need another referendum to resolve this. A general election won't resolve it.

 

[Gt Yarmouth Shrimper]

Ya'll could not wait to see this deal, Brexit and the Tory party fail could you. Clearly party politics, getting a GE and giving a bloody nose to TM is more important that any democratic process.

So what now. May won't resign. New referendum? Peoples vote on issues explained to them by proven liars? Leave with no deal? Back to the EU and try and get concessions they will NOT give?

Come on, I'd like to hear some answers from those that think they know how. How would YOU bring Brexit to fruition like the country voted for?

I don't pretend to know how BB but with a heavy heart, I must suggest that I see the only option is for the UK to leave with no deal and all that it entails.
Only then will we honour the vote and after a few years of recession and pain will we be able to escape from the malaise that currently envelopes us.

 

[rigsby]

We need another referendum to resolve this. A general election won't resolve it.

What if it was 51% remain 49% leave.....Will it be an aggregate score or will we have 3rd a final decider. Or would we wait another 2 years because all the people who voted Remain didn't know what they were voting for

 

[Bielzibubz]

We need another referendum to resolve this. A general election won't resolve it.

And neither will another referendum.

1. How would you implement it?
2. What questions would you put on the ballot paper?
3. How would you ensure that politicians won't lie to the public again.
4. Would you want a 2/3 majority for it to be binding?
5. If it again came back leave, how would you square that with the remainers?
6. How would you placate the millions of angry people that voted leave in the first democratic vote?
7. What's to stop a third referendum if remain wins by 52% to 48%? (see my previous post about what a democratic vote actually is)

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

The country voted to leave. It's that simple. That's what was on the ballot paper. Not a leave if we get this, remain if we don't get that. It was a simple yes or no and DC explained that in one of his last televised speeches before the vote went to the public. To now turn around and say 'well, sorry, we didn't know what we were voting for' or 'sorry, we've changed our minds now we know more' is immaterial and if it does now go to a second referendum or peoples vote, whatever you want to call it, it demolishes the whole concept of political democracy.

Incidentally, the whole point of a democratic vote is letting everyone vote on what they 'think' is best for the whole group at that time and what they think is based on either what they know or what they're told prior to that vote. The result of a democratic vote is not decided on or overturned 6, 12 18 or even 36 months later because what those people thought at the time either turned out to be wrong or they were misguided in their beliefs.

But of course it's not that simple. If it were, we wouldn't be in the bloody mess we find ourselves. I don't know what the solution is, that is going to bring the country back together again but I'm pretty sure who got us into this mess. That arrogant p***k Cameron was so sure of himself and of easily winning the referendum, that he took no measures to avoid the country being completely split in two by its divisive result. Such an enormous change by referendum should have required a 66% vote to pass. With that , there would have been no justifiable arguments if leave had won. If that sounds harsh on leave supporters, if they failed to get the required two thirds, they could have waited till 2021, built up their support and got a conservative/ukip(?) government in power who would have carried through their wishes democratically, without severely dividing the country in two.

 

[rigsby]

We have learnt one great lesson over the 30 months. None of the doom predictions by the so called 'experts' on the remain side has been remotely close. In fact we have more jobs than when we left and wages have gone up.

Debt and anger are rising fast amongst the rest of the EU and everyone can see for themselves It is doomed to failure.

If we had never been in it the last thing we would be doing is having a referendum this year to see if we wanted to join.

 

[rigsby]

But of course it's not that simple. If it were, we wouldn't be in the bloody mess we find ourselves. I don't know what the solution is, that is going to bring the country back together again but I'm pretty sure who got us into this mess. That arrogant p***k Cameron was so sure of himself and of easily winning the referendum, that he took no measures to avoid the country being completely split in two by its divisive result. Such an enormous change by referendum should have required a 66% vote to pass. With that , there would have been no justifiable arguments if leave had won. If that sounds harsh on leave supporters, if they failed to get the required two thirds, they could have waited till 2021, built up their support and got a conservative/ukip(?) government in power who would have carried through their wishes democratically, without severely dividing the country in two.

Lets make a sure that's in place for any future EU referendums.

 

[rigsby]

2. What questions would you put on the ballot paper?
)

You would have to keep it simple, so I would say just 2 options.

1) Remain part of the EU
2) Don't bother because your vote doesn't count anyway.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

If it was put into law that a 66% vote was required for one thing then it would have to be for everything similar from Unions to individual bills. Not possible unless you want double standards to be an acceptable norm.

 

[Gt Yarmouth Shrimper]

We have learnt one great lesson over the 30 months. None of the doom predictions by the so called 'experts' on the remain side has been remotely close. In fact we have more jobs than when we left and wages have gone up.

Debt and anger are rising fast amongst the rest of the EU and everyone can see for themselves It is doomed to failure.

If we had never been in it the last thing we would be doing is having a referendum this year to see if we wanted to join.

I must say that for someone so desperate to leave the EU, your obsession with them seems quite remarkable.

 

[Napster]

We have learnt one great lesson over the 30 months. None of the doom predictions by the so called 'experts' on the remain side has been remotely close. In fact we have more jobs than when we left and wages have gone up.

Debt and anger are rising fast amongst the rest of the EU and everyone can see for themselves It is doomed to failure.

If we had never been in it the last thing we would be doing is having a referendum this year to see if we wanted to join.

We haven’t left yet.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Both Southend MPs voted against may's deal, both voted Leave. If any persons believe this is a vote for Remain then they need think again.
The only rabbit in the hat left to May is in the hands of Brussels and the only trick they can do is making tax payers money disappear without trace.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

JC

Agreed, if JC and the rest had pushed for a better deal for the UK (i.e. getting more from the EU) then the negotiations might have gone better. TM should have let DD get on with it and not come up with her own watered down and SO rejectable idea.
Now what? more from the EU? no chance.
Another vote? unlikely as too difficult now to be worded/questioned.
A GE? possible but TM is likely to "win" the confidence not probable.
A new Tory leader, a delay on A50, renegotiate etc;- what a mess!

JC and the rest?

Ya'll could not wait to see this deal, Brexit and the Tory party fail could you. Clearly party politics, getting a GE and giving a bloody nose to TM is more important that any democratic process.

So what now. May won't resign. New referendum? Peoples vote on issues explained to them by proven liars? Leave with no deal? Back to the EU and try and get concessions they will NOT give?

Come on, I'd like to hear some answers from those that think they know how. How would YOU bring Brexit to fruition like the country voted for?

May called an election 3 years early when she headed a fully functioning government, why so angry that people want another 3 years early when she heads a government that can't pass laws, were found in contempt of Parliament and have focused on one policy for 3 years and the put it to Parliament for it to lose by 232 votes.

Surely anger is due from them not going voluntarily?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I don't pretend to know how BB but with a heavy heart, I must suggest that I see the only option is for the UK to leave with no deal and all that it entails.
Only then will we honour the vote and after a few years of recession and pain will we be able to escape from the malaise that currently envelopes us.

No plans have been made for a no deal. Yes we should have had a government that took a year to negotiate a deal and if that wasn't possible then take 18 months to put everything in place to leave without a deal.
We have two and a half months now and the government are still talking about tweeking their deal and trying again. They haven't planned for no deal and are not focusing on that now either.

 

[Bielzibubz]

But of course it's not that simple. If it were, we wouldn't be in the bloody mess we find ourselves. I don't know what the solution is, that is going to bring the country back together again but I'm pretty sure who got us into this mess. That arrogant p***k Cameron was so sure of himself and of easily winning the referendum, that he took no measures to avoid the country being completely split in two by its divisive result. Such an enormous change by referendum should have required a 66% vote to pass. With that , there would have been no justifiable arguments if leave had won. If that sounds harsh on leave supporters, if they failed to get the required two thirds, they could have waited till 2021, built up their support and got a conservative/ukip(?) government in power who would have carried through their wishes democratically, without severely dividing the country in two.

Yes it is. We're in this mess not because of the questions on the ballot paper but because of TN ineptitude in negotiating a deal. 52% is a majority whatever way you want to spin it. I understand you can't see that, you lost.

 

[Lord Football]

I wonder how many Brexiteers back in 2013 would sit in their living rooms thinking "curse the EU and its undemocratic processes". Just a thought that past mind as I surveyed the carnage of last night..... anyway I digress.

It is all very well people going "you lost". Yeah, we lost. But you won and really it was down to the winners to explain what they wanted. They didn't. There have been bland statements about Canada+, Norway, etc, but no-one really knows how they would work. Both certainly involve a border in Northern Ireland. And that's the problem that isn't going away.

Without playing the poster, I asked you @Bielzibubz how you'd solve the Northern Ireland issue. It wasn't a fair question (I knew the answer), but your answer was honest. You didn't know and gave responsibility to those who have to think about that kind of thing.

However, these were the very same people who were saying in June 2016 that Northern Ireland wasn't solveable without there being significant risks to the Good Friday Agreement, and the UK's standing in WTO rules. The same people Michael Gove said of "I think we've had enough of experts". And so here we are with no practical working solution to Northern Ireland that will keep the Union intact, meets WTO rules, be agreeable with the EU and will get DUP support.

You also asked for a solution to the impasse.....

It is in fact what she should have done at the beginning and ascertain what Brexit really was. She needed to move away from the "Brexit means Brexit" and "No Deal is better than a bad deal" mantra. We needed some honesty about how things really work, and not just dismiss them as "Project Fear". It is utter insanity that even now when Government issue technical notices about Day One that sections still shout "scaremongering". The entire ****show has been toxic and devisive.

So, her plan should be.

* Seek an extension to A50. If that is rejected she should revoke A50 (she can invoke it again later)

* Seek cross party support to find out what kind of arrangement could get the support of Parliament. This effectively means ignoring the ERG wing of her party (that spat its load in November and now cannot bring down her Premiership). Make it clear that a second referendum and no deal are not options. Concentrate on the issue of leaving.

* Go back to Brussels with a set of priciples that would form the basis of a new negotiation, this time in the knowledge it has backing from the HoC.

* Negotiate transparently, so the HoC isn't faced with something drastically different than the negotiating plan.

* Once negotiations are completed, take it back to the HoC for ratification,

* If needs be invoke A50 again, but with an extremely short timescale (days, not months), and a transition period tagged on the end to allow for new legisation, technology and guidance to be brought into line

* Leave.

I think the one thing we can all agree on. This entire process has left the country broken and divided.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

There is a way out of this for Brexiteer MPs - vote down the government that have failed your cause, vote in a Brexit leader of the Conservative Party, fight an election on a real Brexit mandate.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Both Southend MPs voted against may's deal, both voted Leave. If any persons believe this is a vote for Remain then they need think again.
The only rabbit in the hat left to May is in the hands of Brussels and the only trick they can do is making tax payers money disappear without trace.

What struck me about the reaction to the vote last night was the jubilance of both camps of protesters on College Green (and by various MP's eager to face the cameras tbf.)

Clearly,both leave and remain can't have won. It's going to be an interesting couple of weeks.