Brexit negotiations thread

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I disagree with the premise of a lot of this.

Labour (other than a very small number of MPs) backed Remain and got their vote out - 65% of Labour voters backed Remain. Those members of the public who voted gave a Leave result. That is what Labour had to work with, that was the result.

Labour absolutely would have got a different deal with the EU as the whole approach would have been different - the rights of EU citizens would have been guaranteed from day one, they wouldn't have spent time going to court trying to cut Parliament out, they would have full respect for the Good Friday Agreement, hard Brexit would never have been a consideration, so many things to do with the approach would have been different. Remain would still have been the best option, but they would have toatally different priorities in what to get from the deal.

Lots of people seem to have a need for other parties to take a share of a blame for the mess. The deal May has negotiated and the fact it won't get through Parliament is in no way the fault of Labour, LibDems, SNP or even UKIP - the deal is a Tory deal and its 100% the fault of the Tories that it is a shambles.

The Tories brought about the referendum and consequently Brexit, Their incompetent negotiations were hampered all the way by the deep divisions in their own ranks. That I think we can agree about.
For me, whether it had been a united Tory party or the Labour party negotiating the deal, the result wouldn't have been that different. As I've said above a 'good' Brexit deal was never going to be possible, it doesn't exist.. We were sold Brexit on a lie, i.e. that we could have virtually the same benefits outside the EU as we had as members and the good british public bought a pup. That was always a delusion, an impossible dream. Yet it is one that May held onto until quite recently and one that the Labour party still hangs onto even now.............read again the six tests they have laid down for accepting any plan that May brings back. If you need reminding this is N°2 ...........

"Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?"

 

[dcblue]

Nothing like an over reaction eh? What "sorry fate" will we all end up with, please elaborate.

No I won't elaborate. If you can't already see the downward direction of society and continual loss of freedoms then what is the point.
As I said I can't be bothered with this anymore and all the debate on here is a waste of everyone's time as the politicians will do as they please. When you all finally realise you have no say in what happens politically then maybe you may think of the only possible response to get heard.
This referendum and resulting outcome just shows the irrelevance of voting.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I don't know how many times it has to be said. This deal is the result of large majority of parliament supports remain. It doesn't really matter whether they are labour, tory, snp or lib. They all sent representatives to Brussels to scupper any possible reasonable deal.
As it stands this deal is dreadful and should be rejected by all.
The inevitable result will be remain and the end of democracy for a large swathe of the population. I have said before this will result in civil unrest and it is very possible . If I had grandchildren I would join in but my thinking is, you remainers will all deserve your sorry fate and I can't be bothered any more to try and change it.
Unless there is a non lib,lab,or Tory standing in my area I won't bother to vote again. They are all traitorous scum.

So, you should then be pushing for another referendum. It would get the decision out of the hands of what you call the Remain parliament. Your prefered option of leaving the EU without a deal would be one of the clear choices. Let's see how many people would vote for it.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

So, you should then be pushing for another referendum. It would get the decision out of the hands of what you call the Remain parliament. Your prefered option of leaving the EU without a deal would be one of the clear choices. Let's see how many people would vote for it.

The only people that want another referendum are those that voted remain or those that have changed their mind to remain. Everyone knows that the remain option would now win in a new vote. That's why remainers are pushing for it.

 

[MK Shrimper]

The only people that want another referendum are those that voted remain or those that have changed their mind to remain. Everyone knows that the remain option would now win in a new vote. That's why remainers are pushing for it.

Perhaps the scales have fallen from (some) peoples eyes? Most of the pre-referendum debate from both sides (granted) was little more than lies (the leave side massive whoppers), the leave debate was (probably) funded illegally via Russia.

 

[RHB]

David Cameron has gently faded into the background, but he was the architect of the Brexit pile that now confronts the country. He didn't have to call the referendum but he did, and yet none of the political manure now flying around will land anywhere near him.

As for a second referendum, Theresa May has categorically stated that will not happen. Maybe the result of the vote in the Commons will soften that stance. What seems apparent to me now is that none of the main political parties actually give a monkey's about the general public and their only drivers are their own political ends and those of their immediate supporters.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

The Tories brought about the referendum and consequently Brexit, Their incompetent negotiations were hampered all the way by the deep divisions in their own ranks. That I think we can agree about.
For me, whether it had been a united Tory party or the Labour party negotiating the deal, the result wouldn't have been that different. As I've said above a 'good' Brexit deal was never going to be possible, it doesn't exist.. We were sold Brexit on a lie, i.e. that we could have virtually the same benefits outside the EU as we had as members and the good british public bought a pup. That was always a delusion, an impossible dream. Yet it is one that May held onto until quite recently and one that the Labour party still hangs onto even now.............read again the six tests they have laid down for accepting any plan that May brings back. If you need reminding this is N°2 ...........

"Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?"

There is no way of knowing what deal Labour would have negotiated with the EU. All we know is they would have taken a very different approach, and that they haven't been able to put that approach into action because Theresa May is PM and her deal is her deal and no one else's.



Labour's 6 tests were based on promises made by the Leave side and are designed to hold the government to account. The Tory deal doesn't meet the 6 tests so Labour will vote against it and it won't get through Parliament. That is how to oppose the government. If Labour had followed the LibDems tactics then May would have a majority and Brexit would be done and dusted.



So I maintain the point - if you are in favour of Remain or want Brexit to be done in a way that is not a shambolic cave-in then at this point in time Labour policy has done you a massive favour. What comes next remains to be seen.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

The only people that want another referendum are those that voted remain or those that have changed their mind to remain. Everyone knows that the remain option would now win in a new vote. That's why remainers are pushing for it.

we Remainers were all sure we would win first time round. If you go to Leave supporting areas I'm not sure there has been a massive change of heart. Question Time audiences and Twitter users are probably the only time I hear from Leave voters and those that I hear don't seem to have changed their minds.

 

[RHB]

we Remainers were all sure we would win first time round. If you go to Leave supporting areas I'm not sure there has been a massive change of heart. Question Time audiences and Twitter users are probably the only time I hear from Leave voters and those that I hear don't seem to have changed their minds.

Although I doubt whether Question Time audiences and Twitter users truly reflect the opinions of the populace in general.

I have no empirical evidence to back up my next statement, but I believe that a sizeable minority of young voters simply bypassed the first referendum in the mistaken belief that it was nothing to do with them. Now that they can see potential european careers vanishing down the toilet their views may change. Similarly, there are youngsters now old enough to vote who weren't there first time round. We never under estimate the grey vote in this country, well maybe the young would surprise us if there was another referendum as this time they will have paid a bit more attention.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Although I doubt whether Question Time audiences and Twitter users truly reflect the opinions of the populace in general.

I have no empirical evidence to back up my next statement, but I believe that a sizeable minority of young voters simply bypassed the first referendum in the mistaken belief that it was nothing to do with them. Now that they can see potential european careers vanishing down the toilet their views may change. Similarly, there are youngsters now old enough to vote who weren't there first time round. We never under estimate the grey vote in this country, well maybe the young would surprise us if there was another referendum as this time they will have paid a bit more attention.

Not to mention a lot of the grey vote are no longer with us.

I find it odd that a generation that lived through the horrors of WW2 would want a Europe divided again. My 89yr old mum voted Remain and was proud to do so. Most people who bang on about the country "getting through" the war were too young to have been there and millions didn't. They died.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Not to mention a lot of the grey vote are no longer with us.

I find it odd that a generation that lived through the horrors of WW2 would want a Europe divided again. My 89yr old mum voted Remain and was proud to do so. Most people who bang on about the country "getting through" the war were too young to have been there and millions didn't. They died.

thing with old people is that they are replace by people who were middle aged and are now old! If there is such a thing as an old person's perspective they will keep having new advocates of that.
I absolutely want to Remain and I too suspect that Remain would win 2nd time round but that complacency is what tripped us up last time round. A lot of people would be offended by the first result not being enacted - that is why I think it is important that the elected government were allowed to attempt to put Brexit into practice. I was banking on their incompetency as the route to Remain.
'We gave it a chance but it has not panned out' is a much better approach than 'you were wrong'.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

thing with old people is that they are replace by people who were middle aged and are now old! If there is such a thing as an old person's perspective they will keep having new advocates of that.
I absolutely want to Remain and I too suspect that Remain would win 2nd time round but that complacency is what tripped us up last time round. A lot of people would be offended by the first result not being enacted - that is why I think it is important that the elected government were allowed to attempt to put Brexit into practice I was banking on their incompetency as the route to Remain! was banking on their incompetency as the route to Remain.
'We gave it a chance but it has not panned out' is a much better approach than 'you were wrong'.

That was a VERY cunning plan! ........... now all we need is Corbyn for to come out and say, the Brexit you were promised was sadly unachievable and a second referendum on the stark choices which now face us is the only way out of the impasse.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

That was a VERY cunning plan! ........... now all we need is Corbyn for to come out and say, the Brexit you were promised was sadly unachievable and a second referendum on the stark choices which now face us is the only way out of the impasse.

Sadly,there won't be a second referendum,Yogi.

 

[MK Shrimper]

That was a VERY cunning plan! ........... now all we need is Corbyn for to come out and say, the Brexit you were promised was sadly unachievable and a second referendum on the stark choices which now face us is the only way out of the impasse.

Yep. I think thats spot on. There is no easy option.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Sadly,there won't be a second referendum,Yogi.

I think it's inevitable.

 

[Ricky Otto]

I think it's inevitable.

Logically, I agree. But this whole process has been devoid of logic so far, so I don't have massive faith. I certainly wouldn't dismiss it though.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Sadly,there won't be a second referendum,Yogi.

I'd have to say that I honestly don't know but fear not. You appear far more sure, so what exactly are we going to end up with, when the dust finally settles?

 

[Benfleet A1]

I'd have to say that I honestly don't know but fear not. You appear far more sure, so what exactly are we going to end up with, when the dust finally settles?

The stuff pigs roll in.

 

[rigsby]

I don't know how many times it has to be said. This deal is the result of large majority of parliament supports remain. It doesn't really matter whether they are labour, tory, snp or lib. They all sent representatives to Brussels to scupper any possible reasonable deal.
As it stands this deal is dreadful and should be rejected by all.
The inevitable result will be remain and the end of democracy for a large swathe of the population. I have said before this will result in civil unrest and it is very possible . If I had grandchildren I would join in but my thinking is, you remainers will all deserve your sorry fate and I can't be bothered any more to try and change it.
Unless there is a non lib,lab,or Tory standing in my area I won't bother to vote again. They are all traitorous scum.

There's an old saying "If your vote actually changed anything, you wouldn't be allowed one". As the last 2 years have proved that is very true.

Older people 50+ who didn't vote last time tell me they would vote leave because of the behaviour of the EU and our own politicians and they clear fact that the doomsday predictions of project fear have proved laughable. I have however met more people who voted leave but say they wont vote if we have another referendum, simple because they think what's the point. Its certainly not because they want to remain and will look at the so called 'far right' as an alternative.

 

[MK Shrimper]

I'm confident their won't be a no-deal. Sensible politicians will understand the catastrophic damage that will do to the UK. Gove, Johnson & Rees-Mogg can stamp and scream all they like but the vast majority of MPs will ignore them.