Brexit negotiations thread

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46330380

I'm sure there´ll be dancing in the streets.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

1.It would see the election of a Labour government.

2.Labour's policy on Brexit is crystal clear. The party is in favour of continued access to a/the custom's union.That would allow much closer alignment to the EU after Brexit than anything in Mrs May's plan

Yep, crystal clear, Labour's policy on Brexit is?...................................a General Election! If you want to be more specific about it you really have to understand which section of the Labour party you're talking about. If it concerns the clique around the leadership, then BINO appears to be the word. I can't see a better one to describe it. (What on earth is the point of Brexit, if you are tied for ever to the EU in a customs union?) Thus, if I understand it correctly, Corbyn's cunning plan is to unite the country behind BINO. This would not please the majority of delegates at the conference (and in momentum) who IIRC have a remain tendence and would favour a referendum. Corbyn is terrified of a referendum because he would be forced to come down off the fence. Either he would come down on the remain side, which would risk alienating droves of Labour Brexit voters (mind you, they'll be alienated anyway when they understand Corbyn's BINO position). Alternatively, he could support something like May's (slightly amended???) Brexit plan which would alienate swathes of the membership. I think that's crystal clear.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Ha! whilst everyone has been wringing their hands over the Irish border issue, with its famous and much loved backstop (that, of course, will never be used). Look what's just arrived before the deadline.....................GIBRALTER! Smoothed over with, from what I understand is, a small concession to Spain. Wait for this one to come back and bite us in the bum when (if?) trade talks are carried on in earnest, some years down the line.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46334649

The deal is signed .Let the rejoicing begin.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I've just listened to Piennar's politics hour on R5 and it has helped me understand Labour Brexit policy a bit better. The first part of their winning strategy would be that they'd be nicer, friendlier and more amenable to negotiate with..........so far, so good. As has been explained many times on here, they would seek a new kind of customs union which would in turn solve the Irish border problem and this is how I arrived at my conclusion of BINO................now I see I'm wrong. Labour aims for this whilst still having the right to strike its own trade deals in the world. Let that sink in for a moment....................................................that's TOTALLY impossible, no matter how nice you were. This is Labour's 'have cake and eat it' moment, it's something the EU would NEVER agree to..................and you surely know it.
IF there were to be an early General Election, the main debate would obviously be about Brexit. On the showing by the hapless Labour MP this morning, under scrutiny, your policy would be torn to shreds.
It saddens me a little to tear into Labour as much as I do with regard this present government. (Although I'm certainly more sympathetic to them when they present themselves as a Social Democratic party, rather than the present group in control). However, I've suffered two years of listening to the utter rubbish the Tories spouted concerning the 'great' Brexit deal they were going to achieve, I don't need to hear more totally unrealistic garbage from the opposition.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46334649

The deal is signed .Let the rejoicing begin.

TUIB that's obviously the Irish blood rising in you. Celebrate a tragedy with a wake!

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I've just listened to Piennar's politics hour on R5 and it has helped me understand Labour Brexit policy a bit better. The first part of their winning strategy would be that they'd be nicer, friendlier and more amenable to negotiate with..........so far, so good. As has been explained many times on here, they would seek a new kind of customs union which would in turn solve the Irish border problem and this is how I arrived at my conclusion of BINO................now I see I'm wrong. Labour aims for this whilst still having the right to strike its own trade deals in the world. Let that sink in for a moment....................................................that's TOTALLY impossible, no matter how nice you were. This is Labour's 'have cake and eat it' moment, it's something the EU would NEVER agree to..................and you surely know it.
IF there were to be an early General Election, the main debate would obviously be about Brexit. On the showing by the hapless Labour MP this morning, under scrutiny, your policy would be torn to shreds.
It saddens me a little to tear into Labour as much as I do with regard this present government. (Although I'm certainly more sympathetic to them when they present themselves as a Social Democratic party, rather than the present group in control). However, I've suffered two years of listening to the utter rubbish the Tories spouted concerning the 'great' Brexit deal they were going to achieve, I don't need to hear more totally unrealistic garbage from the opposition.

Yogi,It's time you took on board that the Tories are HMG and they own Brexit.Until such time as there's an early or late election,there really little Labour as HMO can do.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

TUIB that's obviously the Irish blood rising in you. Celebrate a tragedy with a wake!

Ha! As far as I'm aware, (and I've never checked), I don't have any Irish forefathers, (otherwise like a couple of good friends,I'd be applying for an Irish passport).

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Yogi,It's time you took on board that the Tories are HMG and they own Brexit.Until such time as there's an early or late election,there really little Labour as HMO can do.

Of course that is understood. All I'm stating is that, if there were a precipitated GE, Labour would be required to offer a serious position on Brexit. You claimed that Labour policy was crystal clear. From what I see it's muddled, contradictory, confused and as totally unrealistic as the Tories negotiating claims ever were. This surely would be cruelly exposed under the scrutiny of a General Election campaign. Doesn't that worry you? You ain't going to get by just by claiming you'd do it differently than the Tories.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Of course that is understood. All I'm stating is that, if there were a precipitated GE, Labour would be required to offer a serious position on Brexit. You claimed that Labour policy was crystal clear. From what I see it's muddled, contradictory, confused and as totally unrealistic as the Tories negotiating claims ever were. This surely would be cruelly exposed under the scrutiny of a General Election campaign. Doesn't that worry you? You ain't going to get by just by claiming you'd do it differently than the Tories.

1.That's clearly a hypothetical.It's certainly what I'd like to see happen but there's no guarantee that it will.

2.Clearly,also,we're going to have to agree to disagree about Labour's Brexit policy.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Two slightly but importantly contradictory comments by May, from this morning's press conference..............

Theresa May says she is confident she has achieved the best deal possible and "will make the case with all her heart".
this is probably true

She ends the press conference by saying "this is a deal that is good for the whole of the UK".
this is subtlely different from the truth

 

[Benfleet A1]

Ha! As far as I'm aware, (and I've never checked), I don't have any Irish forefathers, (otherwise like a couple of good friends,I'd be applying for an Irish passport).

Keep digging, there must be one in there somewhere.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I've just listened to Piennar's politics hour on R5 and it has helped me understand Labour Brexit policy a bit better. The first part of their winning strategy would be that they'd be nicer, friendlier and more amenable to negotiate with..........so far, so good. As has been explained many times on here, they would seek a new kind of customs union which would in turn solve the Irish border problem and this is how I arrived at my conclusion of BINO................now I see I'm wrong. Labour aims for this whilst still having the right to strike its own trade deals in the world. Let that sink in for a moment....................................................that's TOTALLY impossible, no matter how nice you were. This is Labour's 'have cake and eat it' moment, it's something the EU would NEVER agree to..................and you surely know it.
IF there were to be an early General Election, the main debate would obviously be about Brexit. On the showing by the hapless Labour MP this morning, under scrutiny, your policy would be torn to shreds.
It saddens me a little to tear into Labour as much as I do with regard this present government. (Although I'm certainly more sympathetic to them when they present themselves as a Social Democratic party, rather than the present group in control). However, I've suffered two years of listening to the utter rubbish the Tories spouted concerning the 'great' Brexit deal they were going to achieve, I don't need to hear more totally unrealistic garbage from the opposition.

Labour Brexit policy has helped us get to where we are - that May can't get an awful Brexit deal passed and can't get a no deal Brexit passed. So Remainers and those who want a good Brexit rather than just any Brexit should be grateful.
Their Brexit policy at the next GE is currently unknown because we don't know when that will be or what position we will be in at that point. No party has policies in place for the next GE for the same reason. I'd advise judging each party on current policy in the current circumstances.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Keep digging, there must be one in there somewhere.

I know as far back as my maternal/paternal grandparents.Nothing there and that's what counts I believe.

 

[Benfleet A1]

I know as far back as my maternal/paternal grandparents.Nothing there and that's what counts I believe.

Oh, shame.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Labour Brexit policy has helped us get to where we are - that May can't get an awful Brexit deal passed and can't get a no deal Brexit passed. So Remainers and those who want a good Brexit rather than just any Brexit should be grateful.
Their Brexit policy at the next GE is currently unknown because we don't know when that will be or what position we will be in at that point. No party has policies in place for the next GE for the same reason. I'd advise judging each party on current policy in the current circumstances.

Grateful to a point! The past few days should have provided a salutory lesson to the British people.............sadly, it probably won't.
Unfortunately Surrey, you and your Labour Party are in danger of remaining sucked in to the same delusion as the Tories, in believing there can be a good Brexit. If we've been taught anything over the past months, it is surely that that is an impossible dream. The Labour Party WON'T get a better deal than the present government, the EU just won't accept it. The insistance by both major parties that there can be a good negotiated deal is a lie and it's about time both the Tories and especially Labour, owned up to it and were truthful to the british public.
At least, we are now faced with the reality of the situation and there are three possible scenarios. Firstly, we accept this deal ('the best deal available' let that soak in...........it's a rare moment of truth from May concerning Brexit). Secondly, we choose no deal, which is a valid and honest option. Some claim this option is the purest and most obvious form of Brexit....... most experts will tell you that it will be a catastrophy for the economy (but who believes experts these days? ) Thirdly, we decide, on reflection, that Brexit wasn't perhaps such a good idea. Maybe it would be a good idea to offer those choices to the good british public and I don't see that as a simple rerun of the referendum but as a choice between hard facts
Let' not forget that it has taken us two painful years to produce this unappetising deal, which in no way reflects the promises made by the leave side.............. and we've only just started! Given the way things have gone so far you have to be certified to believe that the trade deal we will end up, as a third country, will be in any way advantageous to us. The ugly sight of fishing rights and Gibralter have already risen their heads as future bargaining chips for a future deal and I'm sure they won't be the only ones.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Grateful to a point! The past few days should have provided a salutory lesson to the British people.............sadly, it probably won't.
Unfortunately Surrey, you and your Labour Party are in danger of remaining sucked in to the same delusion as the Tories, in believing there can be a good Brexit. If we've been taught anything over the past months, it is surely that that is an impossible dream. The Labour Party WON'T get a better deal than the present government, the EU just won't accept it. The insistance by both major parties that there can be a good negotiated deal is a lie and it's about time both the Tories and especially Labour, owned up to it and were truthful to the british public.
At least, we are now faced with the reality of the situation and there are three possible scenarios. Firstly, we accept this deal ('the best deal available' let that soak in...........it's a rare moment of truth from May concerning Brexit). Secondly, we choose no deal, which is a valid and honest option. Some claim this option is the purest and most obvious form of Brexit....... most experts will tell you that it will be a catastrophy for the economy (but who believes experts these days? ) Thirdly, we decide, on reflection, that Brexit wasn't perhaps such a good idea. Maybe it would be a good idea to offer those choices to the good british public and I don't see that as a simple rerun of the referendum but as a choice between hard facts
Let' not forget that it has taken us two painful years to produce this unappetising deal, which in no way reflects the promises made by the leave side.............. and we've only just started! Given the way things have gone so far you have to be certified to believe that the trade deal we will end up, as a third country, will be in any way advantageous to us. The ugly sight of fishing rights and Gibralter have already risen their heads as future bargaining chips for a future deal and I'm sure they won't be the only ones.

I disagree with the premise of a lot of this.

Labour (other than a very small number of MPs) backed Remain and got their vote out - 65% of Labour voters backed Remain. Those members of the public who voted gave a Leave result. That is what Labour had to work with, that was the result.

Labour absolutely would have got a different deal with the EU as the whole approach would have been different - the rights of EU citizens would have been guaranteed from day one, they wouldn't have spent time going to court trying to cut Parliament out, they would have full respect for the Good Friday Agreement, hard Brexit would never have been a consideration, so many things to do with the approach would have been different. Remain would still have been the best option, but they would have toatally different priorities in what to get from the deal.

Lots of people seem to have a need for other parties to take a share of a blame for the mess. The deal May has negotiated and the fact it won't get through Parliament is in no way the fault of Labour, LibDems, SNP or even UKIP - the deal is a Tory deal and its 100% the fault of the Tories that it is a shambles.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Grateful to a point! The past few days should have provided a salutory lesson to the British people.............sadly, it probably won't.
Unfortunately Surrey, you and your Labour Party are in danger of remaining sucked in to the same delusion as the Tories, in believing there can be a good Brexit. If we've been taught anything over the past months, it is surely that that is an impossible dream. The Labour Party WON'T get a better deal than the present government, the EU just won't accept it. The insistance by both major parties that there can be a good negotiated deal is a lie and it's about time both the Tories and especially Labour, owned up to it and were truthful to the british public.
At least, we are now faced with the reality of the situation and there are three possible scenarios. Firstly, we accept this deal ('the best deal available' let that soak in...........it's a rare moment of truth from May concerning Brexit). Secondly, we choose no deal, which is a valid and honest option. Some claim this option is the purest and most obvious form of Brexit....... most experts will tell you that it will be a catastrophy for the economy (but who believes experts these days? ) Thirdly, we decide, on reflection, that Brexit wasn't perhaps such a good idea. Maybe it would be a good idea to offer those choices to the good british public and I don't see that as a simple rerun of the referendum but as a choice between hard facts
Let' not forget that it has taken us two painful years to produce this unappetising deal, which in no way reflects the promises made by the leave side.............. and we've only just started! Given the way things have gone so far you have to be certified to believe that the trade deal we will end up, as a third country, will be in any way advantageous to us. The ugly sight of fishing rights and Gibralter have already risen their heads as future bargaining chips for a future deal and I'm sure they won't be the only ones.

Also - May is not being honest when saying 'this is the best deal available'. Its as much as SHE can muster because of her approach, because she lost two Brexit Secretaries and other key members of the team. Its the best SHE could get because SHE wasted two years with internal arguments, there is no WE involved in this. The public have been cut out, as much as possible Parliament has been cut out, its all the Tory's deal and even a majority of them reject what they have come up with.

 

[dcblue]

I don't know how many times it has to be said. This deal is the result of large majority of parliament supports remain. It doesn't really matter whether they are labour, tory, snp or lib. They all sent representatives to Brussels to scupper any possible reasonable deal.
As it stands this deal is dreadful and should be rejected by all.
The inevitable result will be remain and the end of democracy for a large swathe of the population. I have said before this will result in civil unrest and it is very possible . If I had grandchildren I would join in but my thinking is, you remainers will all deserve your sorry fate and I can't be bothered any more to try and change it.
Unless there is a non lib,lab,or Tory standing in my area I won't bother to vote again. They are all traitorous scum.

 

[MK Shrimper]

I don't know how many times it has to be said. This deal is the result of large majority of parliament supports remain. It doesn't really matter whether they are labour, tory, snp or lib. They all sent representatives to Brussels to scupper any possible reasonable deal.
As it stands this deal is dreadful and should be rejected by all.
The inevitable result will be remain and the end of democracy for a large swathe of the population. I have said before this will result in civil unrest and it is very possible . If I had grandchildren I would join in but my thinking is, you remainers will all deserve your sorry fate and I can't be bothered any more to try and change it.
Unless there is a non lib,lab,or Tory standing in my area I won't bother to vote again. They are all traitorous scum.

Nothing like an over reaction eh? What "sorry fate" will we all end up with, please elaborate.