The EU Referendum

[GBJ]

You Brexiters are fooling yourself. Both Gove & Johnson are pro-immigration - it'll still happen and I wouldn't be surprised if they give those from the EU that are here already a work visa - are you seriously thinking that in 2 years time the Government will forceably expel 1/2 million EU immigrants, those with full time jobs, kids in school and mortgages being paid? They barely touch the surface of the illegal immigrants here as it is.

For me, it was never about stopping immigration, it was about controlling it. I don't expect us to close the door & tell everyone to bugger off. We'll still accept people. Only now, we'll hopefully only accept the ones who can benefit our society. I also don't expect anyone to be expelled, (unless they're here illegally). I fail to understand why anyone, can be happy with happy & content with the EU's policy of uncontrolled & unlimited freedom of movement.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

We would no longer be bound by the ECHR so deporting criminals ought to be a lot simpler and robust when we are " out" and many would argue that that will be a good start for better control. At present even convicted murderers and rapists can enter and stay without restriction.

 

[londonblue]

We would no longer be bound by the ECHR so deporting criminals ought to be a lot simpler and robust when we are " out" and many would argue that that will be a good start for better control. At present even convicted murderers and rapists can enter and stay without restriction.

In that case you need to read the post I put on the other thread. I doubt it will make any significant difference.

 

[Pubey]

We would no longer be bound by the ECHR so deporting criminals ought to be a lot simpler and robust when we are " out" and many would argue that that will be a good start for better control. At present even convicted murderers and rapists can enter and stay without restriction.

Even if out of the EU the ECHR still applies to us because it's not an EU institution. We're still a member of the Council of Europe.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

They will also live with all the benefits of Brexit for the longest. I would make far more money with a remain, but as I'm the sort of person who puts others first I voted out for their future.

I voted out for the young people who's parents can't pay their Uni fees and will not be able to provide a deposit for a house. The people on zero hours and above inflation rent rises, who can't afford a car or even one holiday a year. You keep talking about the risk of Brexit, but these young people have absolutely nothing to lose.

Under the EU and unlimited immigration they would be condemned to a live of misery. Today they have hope. Hope that we can make Brexit work for more people than just a few at the top. For us baby boomers and for them.

At 51, I'm not at all sure you still qualify as a "baby boomer.":winking:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_boomers

"Baby boomers are people born during the demographic post–World War II baby boom approximately between the years 1946 and 1964. This includes people who are between 52 and 70 years old in 2016."

 

[OldBlueLady]

At 51, I'm not at all sure you still qualify as a "baby boomer.":winking:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_boomers

"Baby boomers are people born during the demographic post–World War II baby boom approximately between the years 1946 and 1964. This includes people who are between 52 and 70 years old in 2016."

He's a late baby boomer, right at the end of the time frame.

I cannot believe the petitions and things flying about from people demanding a recount. It was a vote, people had the opportunity - they either voted or they didn't, and if they did and got it wrong, well, then tough **** they should have researched more...and if they didn't, well, tough **** again!

 

[Supernaut]

I cannot believe the petitions and things flying about from people demanding a recount. It was a vote, people had the opportunity - they either voted or they didn't, and if they did and got it wrong, well, then tough **** they should have researched more...and if they didn't, well, tough **** again!

I'm also utterly sick of the whining from the Remain supporters in the last 2 days. Get over it FFS! It just seems so indicative of many young people today; always believing they're right and totally incapable of accepting anyone else's point of view, even when it's a majority (however slim).

 

[OldBlueLady]

I'm also utterly sick of the whining from the Remain supporters in the last 2 days. Get over it FFS! It just seems so indicative of many young people today; always believing they're right and totally incapable of accepting anyone else's point of view, even when it's a majority (however slim).

Not just young people, I have seen plenty of normally sensible 30 odd year olds doing exactly this!

 

[Supernaut]

Not just young people, I have seen plenty of normally sensible 30 odd year olds doing exactly this!

Indeed - David Lammy being the very worst example. Helmet.

 

[Pubey]

Do leave voters not feel duped at all? Farage backtracking on their funding claims for the NHS, and Hannan saying immigration may not be reduced? What exactly have you voted for?

 

[Supernaut]

What exactly have you voted for?

For the record, I'm not a Tory voter, and I don't support Johnson/Gove/Farage, but I couldn't bring myself to vote with Cameron, Osborne et al, and I don't buy Corbyn's EU-turn either...

http://www.leftleave.org/lexit-statement-on-the-vote-to-leave-the-european-union/

 

[Medway Blue]

Do leave voters not feel duped at all? Farage backtracking on their funding claims for the NHS, and Hannan saying immigration may not be reduced? What exactly have you voted for?

No. Because some of us did our own research and our reading and formed our own informed opinions. Too many people allowed themselves to be dominated by the personalities and the crap they spouted - whether they were repeating the facts from them or constantly speaking out against them and sharing/re-tweeting silly memes which poke fun at them - either way those people were allowing the personalities to rule the debate.

I'm very comfortable with my decision. I'm not comfortable with the hate from either side before and after the result, not with the decision, nor with the fact that several Europeans I know are genuinely upset and worried. It hurts me that they feel unwanted here. For many of us Leave voters (perhaps even the majority of us, who knows), that was never a motivation or an intention and it's sad that it's come to that.


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[londonblue]

I'm also utterly sick of the whining from the Remain supporters in the last 2 days. Get over it FFS! It just seems so indicative of many young people today; always believing they're right and totally incapable of accepting anyone else's point of view, even when it's a majority (however slim).

But what they're asking for is that the government follow the rules of an EU referendum vote, something this government, in their arrogance didn't think they'd need to do.

 

[Medway Blue]

But what they're asking for is that the government follow the rules of an EU referendum vote, something this government, in their arrogance didn't think they'd need to do.

What are the rules of an EU referendum vote then?


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[MK Shrimper]

From The Guardian.

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

 

[RHB]

I'm not a great lover of the Guardian, but that article raises some very interesting issues. I think it is virtually impossible to see how all of this will finally unravel. 'Careful what you wish for' springs to mind.

 

[MK Shrimper]

I'm not a great lover of the Guardian, but that article raises some very interesting issues. I think it is virtually impossible to see how all of this will finally unravel. 'Careful what you wish for' springs to mind.

Indeed. What have Brexiters voted for?

Poverty, mass unemployment, a huge recession, the break up of the UK, the possible re-emergence of the IRA. For what exactly?...Some misguided notion that Britain of 2016 is Britain of 1956.

 

[steveo]

And a mass influx of immigrants as posted earlier by me:
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-to-cause-immigration-surge-as-500000-east-europeans-will-rush-in-before-borders-close/ar-AAhCKDo?li=BBoPWjQ

Not exactly what the euphoric leave campaign were hoping for I assume.

 

[Medway Blue]

Indeed. What have Brexiters voted for?

Poverty, mass unemployment, a huge recession, the break up of the UK, the possible re-emergence of the IRA. For what exactly?...Some misguided notion that Britain of 2016 is Britain of 1956.

Bloody hell, can I have a look into your crystal ball please? I'd make a killing from betting on future sports results.

You don't know that any of those things are going to happen. Nobody does. Even the so-called "experts". I do dislike this high-and-mighty and condescending attitude from Remainers.


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[MK Shrimper]

Bloody hell, can I have a look into your crystal ball please? I'd make a killing from betting on future sports results.

You don't know that any of those things are going to happen. Nobody does. Even the so-called "experts". I do dislike this high-and-mighty and condescending attitude from Remainers.


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HSBC is already moving 2000 jobs from the City - you think this is going to be the end of job losses? In NI, most Protestant areas voted out, most Catholic areas voted remain. I am truly staggered how any Brexiters didn't consider the huge damage that an out vote would impact on the country and the futures of the young.