Strikes take 2

[Hotman]

What does it entail?

buying jumpers, handing them out.

 

[pickledseal]

Cause and effect mate... Do a good job and you won't get a pay cut x

Every teacher is getting a pay cut effectively. Wages are frozen, inflation continues, contributions rise. You have less pounds in your pocket and you can buy less stuff with those pounds... I know the first two are true of most people but the third is why people are striking. Even the best teachers in the country are in the same boat.

 

[Hotman]

Every teacher is getting a pay cut effectively. Wages are frozen, inflation continues, contributions rise. You have less pounds in your pocket and you can buy less stuff with those pounds... I know the first two are true of most people but the third is why people are striking. Even the best teachers in the country are in the same boat.

thought it was all about being in it together?

 

[osymandus]

thought it was all about being in it together?

Those who define the criteria s you are raising have been shown to have both flawed judgements and sense of value .
You say that it is cause and affect regrading workers and management , yet just as many managers are as bad and flawed as the "workers" they manage . Cause and affect has little regard for your social idea's or supposed superiority .
Cherry picking does not .

The idea that you are in a position in a place of employment is you have the skills and ability to do that job, that applies to everyone .

 

[Hotman]

Those who define the criteria s you are raising have been shown to have both flawed judgements and sense of value .
You say that it is cause and affect regrading workers and management , yet just as many managers are as bad and flawed as the "workers" they manage . Cause and affect has little regard for your social idea's or supposed superiority .
Cherry picking does not .

The idea that you are in a position in a place of employment is you have the skills and ability to do that job, that applies to everyone .

Agree entirely, you get good and bad managers, same throughout any team no doubt.

 

[osymandus]

Agree entirely, you get good and bad managers, same throughout any team no doubt.

Exactly however , many arguments I have seen are bias because it is believed by some that to withhold your labour is inherently wrong , rather then a last resort to demonstrate that maybe all is not well .

We do have a perceived biased maybe in our country or Europe wide , i couldn't say that only certain part's of a business have an inherent wroth (im not saying this about you C btw ;-)) . And has reflects in our society . Unless you to the line in these criteria and these alone , you have little on no worth . Which of course is a nonsense , as those who within a company start to dip in performance don;t just become trouble makers/worthless over night. The same is for those living in our culture, no one ever sets out in life to harm or damage others , it comes from experience of live and how they are taught to relate to this . All aspects of society are a macro cosmic refelction of the individuals in.

 

[Reg Martin]

Had an interesting chat about this at break today in the staff room.

As I've stated before, I think some reform is necessary, but I've seen figures from both sides about the financial feasibility of the pensions and both sides widely disagree about the cost. An open investigation like the one for teachers in 2006 (which claimed they were sustainable) needs to happen - why is anyone reluctant to do this? Surely if the governments figures are correct, this would work in their favour and weaken the unions position?

The second thing, and this is perhaps the key thing, is that teachers and schools have been under constant attack since Gove took over. It's already perhaps the only profession where *everyone* is an expert... How many people go to their GP, lawyer etc and tell them how to do their job?

I'm not saying schools, or the education system, or certainly all teachers are perfect... but when you're told you're doing a crap job and then you're effectively having a pay cut, that people will be happy?

I think teachers are being influenced by everything that is going on in education and the pensions is just the final straw and perhaps the Unions are just capitalising on this.

Personally I'm quite lucky as in I am in the pre-2007 scheme.

There is no inquiry needed as it is just a fact that Public Sector Pensions are only sustainable if it assumed that they continue to be very generously subsidised by the taxpayer.

Perhaps part of the 'attacks' on the teaching profession is because the average person feels a degree of scepticism about the ever-improving UK exam results whilst the country slips down international tables of educational achievement?

Every teacher is getting a pay cut effectively. Wages are frozen, inflation continues, contributions rise. You have less pounds in your pocket and you can buy less stuff with those pounds... I know the first two are true of most people but the third is why people are striking. Even the best teachers in the country are in the same boat.

Isn't this effectively people trying to hang on to their no longer affordable privileges? Most people in this country are still vastly better off than many in the thirld world. We have more in common with the super-rich than the average third world person.
A case can probably be made against many of government spending decisions on a case-by-case basis but collectively we cannot go on as a country by living on borrowed money. Overall public spending under the current government is actually going up because an increasing proportion of it is taken up on debt repayment and interest on debt.
It would be very nice if all the financial problems were down to a group of greedy bankers, and though they may be a factor, I can't help thinking that they are a symptom of the problem rather than the cause.

 

[Firestorm]

Cause and effect mate... Do a good job and you won't get a pay cut x

How does that work when its the government who have put in a public sector pay freeze accross the board ?

When there were accross the board pay restraints , companies devised ways round it, , spurious levels of management and numerous job titles were introduced (as promotions were exempt from the pay restriction) and company cars were handed around .
These pay restraints were there for the publics good yet the private sector deliberately found ways to get around them , but the public sector employees at the time , subject to the same restraints.

As for this "the private sector have suffered with their pensions", So have the public sector, a large number of public sector employees (post office telecoms workers etc) got their pensions shafted by privatisation

 

[Firestorm]

In a lot of the cases the arguments are about percieved fairness.
The Private sector see it as unfair that the public sector are being "funded" by the tax payer and the Public sector question the "fairness" of the tax payer pumping billions into the banks who appear to be in the main paying inplated salaries.

Either way i honestly feel that a lot of it is based on what people don't know, If the protestors etc were aware (or chose to actually listen to) how much revenue "invisibles" bring into our economy thay may well realise that to try and do with out them would be a folly.

Conversely if the blinkered "anti public sector" were to try and find out what these people do instead of hiding behind the tired old "spaghetti knitting for one legged black lesbians co-ordinator" perception they may well realise that these people do not have a soft option ....

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

In a lot of the cases the arguments are about percieved fairness.
The Private sector see it as unfair that the public sector are being "funded" by the tax payer and the Public sector question the "fairness" of the tax payer pumping billions into the banks who appear to be in the main paying inplated salaries.

Either way i honestly feel that a lot of it is based on what people don't know, If the protestors etc were aware (or chose to actually listen to) how much revenue "invisibles" bring into our economy thay may well realise that to try and do with out them would be a folly.

Conversely if the blinkered "anti public sector" were to try and find out what these people do instead of hiding behind the tired old "spaghetti knitting for one legged black lesbians co-ordinator" perception they may well realise that these people do not have a soft option ....

I was going to applaud you for a well reasoned contribution to the debate, and then I saw this:

http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Work-with-us...s/Community-Engagement-Adviser-Stabilisation/

 

[Pubey]

In a lot of the cases the arguments are about percieved fairness.
The Private sector see it as unfair that the public sector are being "funded" by the tax payer and the Public sector question the "fairness" of the tax payer pumping billions into the banks who appear to be in the main paying inplated salaries.

Either way i honestly feel that a lot of it is based on what people don't know, If the protestors etc were aware (or chose to actually listen to) how much revenue "invisibles" bring into our economy thay may well realise that to try and do with out them would be a folly.

Conversely if the blinkered "anti public sector" were to try and find out what these people do instead of hiding behind the tired old "spaghetti knitting for one legged black lesbians co-ordinator" perception they may well realise that these people do not have a soft option ....

Good post, agree with all that you said.

 

[Napster]

wish I could bloody strike. Instead I pick and choose the hours I work.

 

[Boreham Shrimper]

I was going to applaud you for a well reasoned contribution to the debate, and then I saw this:

http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Work-with-us...s/Community-Engagement-Adviser-Stabilisation/

I just threw up :sick:

And this is the kind of non-job (amongst other more useful functions of course) for which I pay the best part of a third of my monthly income?! Time to get rid :stunned:

 

[Neil_F]

In a lot of the cases the arguments are about percieved fairness.
The Private sector see it as unfair that the public sector are being "funded" by the tax payer

what are the quotation marks for? The taxpayer does fund the public sector.

and the Public sector question the "fairness" of the tax payer pumping billions into the banks who appear to be in the main paying inplated salaries.

Why do the public sector always take the financial sector as their comparison? The rest of the private sector is the genuine comparison and it is the fault of governments that the financial sector was allowed to get away with it, much to the disgust of everyone.

Conversely if the blinkered "anti public sector" were to try and find out what these people do instead of hiding behind the tired old "spaghetti knitting for one legged black lesbians co-ordinator" perception they may well realise that these people do not have a soft option ....

This is not the issue. I don't know what function people perform in the public sector and I don't have the time or inclination to audit it. The issue is whether or not the current settlement is sustainable in financial terms and whether it is fair compared the median position in the private sector (see my questions earlier in this thread which only one public sector member has answered).

 

[Firestorm]

I was going to applaud you for a well reasoned contribution to the debate, and then I saw this:

http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Work-with-us...s/Community-Engagement-Adviser-Stabilisation/

Hmmm , Helping asylum seekers etc to integrate by understanding what they have been through, seems reasonable to me.


Show me a private sector worker who would be deployed at very short notice and should be prepared to spend time overseas in stretches of up to six weeks. Deployments will often be to hostile or insecure environments, including southern Afghanistan for that salary !!!!


Be fair, thats not in the league of the one legged black lesbian single parent hop scotch co-ordinator jobs that some would have us believe are out there

 

[osymandus]

what are the quotation marks for? The taxpayer does fund the public sector.



Why do the public sector always take the financial sector as their comparison? The rest of the private sector is the genuine comparison and it is the fault of governments that the financial sector was allowed to get away with it, much to the disgust of everyone.

You do ignore lobby groups and the backers/sponsors of the current and past government's when you say this . They don;t exist in a vacuum , the interest's of large corporations have always influenced the political parties they invest to help them create policies which assist them . Financial are normally those with the most influence and affiliations with political groups.



This is not the issue. I don't know what function people perform in the public sector and I don't have the time or inclination to audit it. The issue is whether or not the current settlement is sustainable in financial terms and whether it is fair compared the median position in the private sector (see my questions earlier in this thread which only one public sector member has answered).

Then how can you compare the two ? One of the earlier posts I made was the information that the current teachers pension is sustainable . Also the majority of the private sector business are based totally on profit , where as services are just that they really are not comparable nor should be (why is the criteria used to judge a car salesman and how much their pension is worth , comparable in anyway to the work or ultimate pension of say a fireman ??).

The faciliy is in trying , it really is like comparing apples and oranges , yes both are fruit , but neither grow in the same way or produce the same result ??

 

[Bielzibubz]

http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Work-with-us...s/Community-Engagement-Adviser-Stabilisation/

No wonder this government's going to hell in a hand cart and taking us all with it. Biggest load of pointless bullcrap I've ever read.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Every teacher is getting a pay cut effectively. Wages are frozen, inflation continues, contributions rise. You have less pounds in your pocket and you can buy less stuff with those pounds... I know the first two are true of most people but the third is why people are striking. Even the best teachers in the country are in the same boat.

From Littlejohn's Tuesday column:

A teachers’ union official has claimed absurdly that the Government’s education reforms are a ‘crime against humanity’.

Patrick Roach, deputy general secretary of the NASUWT, attacked plans which allow parents to set up schools free of local government control.

Only a fanatic could equate freeing schools from political interference with genocide and torture.
But this is the type of deranged hyperbole we have come to expect from the Left-wing rabble which runs Britain’s teaching unions.

I’ll tell you what’s a crime against humanity. It’s teachers and education professionals like you, Trotsky, who have betrayed a generation of children, now leaving school semi-literate, innumerate and ill-disciplined, utterly unsuited for the adult world of work.

Trendy teaching methods and ‘child-centred’ learning are what lie behind the fact that more than one million young people in Britain are not only unemployed, many of them are unemployable.

It’s also a crime to shut every school in Britain by staging a politically-motivated, self-indulgent strike, which is what Wolfie Roach and his fellow ‘professionals’ intend to do next week.

The strike is going ahead, even though only a third of NASUWT members voted in favour.

It is to be hoped that the majority of staff who opposed industrial action will report for work as usual, even if that means crossing hostile picket lines.

Any teacher who walks out on November 30 should be sacked. Our children deserve better than this criminal neglect.

 

[pickledseal]

Haha good one Littlejohn... education initiatives and directives come from the government and are enforced by OFSTED. Often the best teachers are the ones that stick two fingers up to it all, or reflectively choose the good bits from each. He basically claims the problems have been caused by the government and then blames the teachers. Interesting line of reasoning that!

 

[canveyshrimper]

Haha good one Littlejohn... education initiatives and directives come from the government and are enforced by OFSTED. Often the best teachers are the ones that stick two fingers up to it all, or reflectively choose the good bits from each. He basically claims the problems have been caused by the government and then blames the teachers. Interesting line of reasoning that!

Let's play Devils Advocate, what about his comment that only a third of the NASUWT voted for strike action?