Strikes take 2

[Yorkshire Blue]

Joke for you all:

A banker, a Tory MP, a Daily Mirror reader and a teacher are sitting round a table. On the table are 10 biscuits. The banker scoffsgives nine of them out to the teacher, the Tory MP and seven other randoms on the understanding that he'll get a full pack of ten back in return. Three or four of those biscuits instead of getting eaten get broken - quite possibly one by the teacher but probably not one by the Tory MP. The Daily Mirror reader asks for his biscuit and the banker says it's OK I'll just have to get it off the teacher who owes me one. The teacher then says sorry I sat on and broke my biscuit and then ate the replacement because I was hungry. The Daily Mirror reader then blames the Banker for the teacher sitting on his biscuit.

It's not really funny is it?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Joke for you all:

A banker, a Tory MP, a Daily Mail reader and a teacher are sitting round a table. On the table are 10 biscuits. The banker and the Tory MP play soggy biscuit.

edited because everyone else was, though I liked the original. The Daily Mail is torture.

 

[Mad Cyril]

I work for a bank and can confirm we do not trade biscuits or biscuit derivatives.

 

[Reg Martin]

All the figures on total strikers would be guess work (tho Bilel can always cover, etc) but Cameron's quotes this morning on how many schools had closed was way below the official Department of Education figures so I guess we can assume he is downplaying the other strike figures too.
The question on who should be in government, common sense dictates someone has to be, and only fair that the party with the biggest vote gets to team up with whoever is willing, but it does mean Tory voters get a watered down version of what they wanted, Lib Dem voters are totally shafted as it will take a generation for their vote to pick up, and tatical Lib Dem voters like myself just wish we had vote for the party we wanted rather than against the party we really didn't want. Fair to say that pretty much no-one is happy with the outcome.

I suppose the most predictable outcome of the strike was that both sides would be arguing afterwards about the number who went on strike. Put simply a lot of people went on strike but a lot didn't.
FWIW as someone who has been through a few public sector strikes over the years, I think the support for any future days of action will decrease with each one. When I started 20 years ago, strikes were almost 99% solid but these days even at the outset its only about 50% supported

 

[Neil_F]

Thanks for that

Am I right in thinking that between the implementation of ACT and its repeal, private pension schemes were getting a subsidy from the tax payer of 20% of any Dividend based investment gains

No, I left out the corporate side of the ACT equation for simplicity. The dividend paid by the company was net of the basic rate of income tax i.e. company issues a dividend of £100 but withholds 20% and pays this directly to HMRC. The shareholder thus receives £80. The company can then use the £20 paid against their future corporate tax liability on profits.

That £20 withholdingthus meant that a pension fund had suffered tax on the dividend which was not due (i.e. would have received £100 under the classical method but now receive £80). It is equivalent to paying too much tax and then getting a refund.

In the early 90s they did mess about with the rates such that there was some lose as the full amount of withholding couldn't be recovered. This is a bit before my time though so I don't know the details.

 

[Firestorm]

No, I left out the corporate side of the ACT equation for simplicity. The dividend paid by the company was net of the basic rate of income tax i.e. company issues a dividend of £100 but withholds 20% and pays this directly to HMRC. The shareholder thus receives £80. The company can then use the £20 paid against their future corporate tax liability on profits.

That £20 withholdingthus meant that a pension fund had suffered tax on the dividend which was not due (i.e. would have received £100 under the classical method but now receive £80). It is equivalent to paying too much tax and then getting a refund.

In the early 90s they did mess about with the rates such that there was some lose as the full amount of withholding couldn't be recovered. This is a bit before my time though so I don't know the details.

But to many on here not paying tax equates to being subsidised..........

***ducks***

 

[Neil_F]

But to many on here not paying tax equates to being subsidised..........

***ducks***

To many people generally it seems. Personally I think there is a big difference between a cash handout and a tax exemption, but a lot of people consider them to be equivalent.

 

[Firestorm]

To many people generally it seems. Personally I think there is a big difference between a cash handout and a tax exemption, but a lot of people consider them to be equivalent.

At the end of the day whether the money does not go into the system, or whether its taken out of it, its still not in the system and therefore it costs the country ....

 

[Davros]

Something that hesnt been discussed (ok, so i havent read ALL 23 pages), is the auto-enrollment personal pension scheme that is supposed to be being brought in between 2012-17.

In theory, employees who are not currently on a personal pension scheme will be forced onto one, and their employers will be forced to provide one. By 2017, the saving rate is supposed to be 8%, 5% provided by the employee and 3% provided by the employer. (unless the employer offers to contribute more toward the 8%)

This i find very interesting, as this will mean that private sector workers will be forced to pay 5% towards a non guarenteed return pension, where as currently Public sector workers are protesting against an enforced rise from something like 2.5% to 3.2%.

This isn't aimed at public sector workers, as i appreciate you have all signed contracts etc, but just food for thought.

 

[Neil_F]

At the end of the day whether the money does not go into the system, or whether its taken out of it, its still not in the system and therefore it costs the country ....

True, but it is also vital to consider what happens during the day as well.

For example, employer provided training is not a taxable benefit for employees and employers can take a corporate tax deduction for the expense. If we are equating subsidies and tax relief then the taxpayer effectively subsidises employers for the cost of training employees.

What would happen if that training received no tax relief at all? Less of it would take place. Without that training GDP would be down and so tax revenue would fall. I'm extrapolating for the sake of the point.

Would we have a better training culture if instead there was a government subsidy for training and no tax relief?

 

[Berrichonne shrimper]

Whats a pension? i wont be getting one of those,although the wife might,huurah im save.

 

[Reg Martin]

Something that hesnt been discussed (ok, so i havent read ALL 23 pages), is the auto-enrollment personal pension scheme that is supposed to be being brought in between 2012-17.

In theory, employees who are not currently on a personal pension scheme will be forced onto one, and their employers will be forced to provide one. By 2017, the saving rate is supposed to be 8%, 5% provided by the employee and 3% provided by the employer. (unless the employer offers to contribute more toward the 8%)

This i find very interesting, as this will mean that private sector workers will be forced to pay 5% towards a non guarenteed return pension, where as currently Public sector workers are protesting against an enforced rise from something like 2.5% to 3.2%.

This isn't aimed at public sector workers, as i appreciate you have all signed contracts etc, but just food for thought.

Just to clarify the percentages paid varies between different branches of the public sector - I think the civil service is around the 2% or 3% you mention
I currently pay 6.8% into the local govt scheme and as far as I can work out I will pay 9.2% under the proposed changes though my own personal view is I am still getting a pretty good deal - whcih is why I didnt strike.

 

[Holy Joe]

Just to clarify the percentages paid varies between different branches of the public sector - I think the civil service is around the 2% or 3% you mention
I currently pay 6.8% into the local govt scheme and as far as I can work out I will pay 9.2% under the proposed changes though my own personal view is I am still getting a pretty good deal - whcih is why I didnt strike.

TS - is the pension contractual or a benefit?

 

[pickledseal]

I suppose the most predictable outcome of the strike was that both sides would be arguing afterwards about the number who went on strike. Put simply a lot of people went on strike but a lot didn't.
FWIW as someone who has been through a few public sector strikes over the years, I think the support for any future days of action will decrease with each one. When I started 20 years ago, strikes were almost 99% solid but these days even at the outset its only about 50% supported

I would be surprised if there are any more strike days if the Government do move into meaningful discussions.

Apparently the NASWT have told their members to work to rule... Get in at 830, no lunch clubs, no trips, leave at 3.30.

 

[canveyshrimper]

I would be surprised if there are any more strike days if the Government do move into meaningful discussions.

Apparently the NASWT have told their members to work to rule... Get in at 830, no lunch clubs, no trips, leave at 3.30.

Wish I had a 7 hour working day, less minus lunch of course.

 

[Gt Yarmouth Shrimper]

Wish I had a 7 hour working day, less minus lunch of course.

You neglected to mention the holidays!

 

[Rob Noxious]

Wish I had a 7 hour working day, less minus lunch of course.

You're lucky to have a job, mate. :winking:

 

[canveyshrimper]

You're lucky to have a job, mate. :winking:

Too right mate. :'(

 

[DTS]

:tease:

Wish I had a 7 hour working day, less minus lunch of course.

Not to mention the 16 weeks holiday a year. Tough life

 

[OldBlueLady]

:tease:

Not to mention the 16 weeks holiday a year. Tough life

Think you'll find you've overdone that DtS, unless you're talking about private schools! It's 13 weeks, there was me thinking you were an expert with figures!!!