londonblue
Topgun Pilot
And yet we still managed to get to the final.
-
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Post-Match Thread and Ratings Spain v England UEFA Euro 2024 Final. 20:00hrs 14th July 2024
- Thread starter RHB
- Start date
londonblue
Topgun Pilot
Target man
Striker
Too outspoken and not a yes man. Doesn't fit the FAs criteria. Eddie Howe or Graham Potter will be appointed.
THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK
Life President⭐⭐🦐
The crucial stage for me was when Palmer scored. Spain at last looked a bit flustered. We suddenly had movement up front with Palmer and Watkins. For the first time, we looked like we could actually win this. Then straight away, we kept passing back to Pickford, who suddenly decided to not play keep ball like Spain taught us, and he launched those long useless balls to no one, giving Spain the ball back. That gave them back the control of the game, and we couldn't get the ball from them.
Target man
Striker
Spot on. We had the momentum then and they were there for the taking at the right time of the game. Stunned when we then went backwards again. Mentality is our biggest weakness.
Tangled up in Blue
Certified Senior Citizen⭐🦐
The crucial stage for me for me was when Nico Williams (a player I've always liked) scored early in the 2nd half..Never doubted Spain would win after that.
Leigh_Seasider
Enjoying football again ⭐️🦐
Did you knock your glass of red over when you jumped up and celebrated?
Clinton Baptiste
Life President⭐
The fact that the commentator said that Trippier and Gallagher were about to come on before Spain scored their second says it all. You cant beat teams with ten men passing the ball backwards all the time! Another wasted opportunity as I think Spain were there for the taking, should have hooked Kane off at half time.
Tangled up in Blue
Certified Senior Citizen⭐🦐
I'm a beer drinker and yes I was glad we equalised.
EastStandBlue
Life President
I’ve seen some suggest the result is a “so near, yet so far” moment for this side, but I don’t quite agree with that. It’s come up frequently this tournament, but it was a game settled by moments of individual quality and lapses from (usually) quality individuals. If those moments had gone the other way, who knows what could’ve happened - but England have spent the last month benefitting from individual moments, so maybe it’s about time they went against us.
I thought the game pretty much panned out how it was expected to. In the first half Spain saw much of the ball, looked threatening without ever really creating significant chances, with England looking to mostly contain, but counter where possible. There were a few moments that foreshadowed the broader issues on the night, specifically how Spain spent most of the half probing which channel was weaker, and how to get out of England’s mid-block and press. At one point they had both Williams and Yamal probing Shaw, who pretty admirably stood up to the task. They did eventually work out Walker was the weak link, but too late in the half for them to affect it.
Enormous credit has to go to Luis de la Fuente for his tweaks at HT, which completely changed the game.
Reverting to Williams targeting Walker, choosing to go over England’s press with more direct passing, rather than around, and win the second balls in wide areas was something Spain have done infrequently, and we were just completely unprepared for it. Cue 15 minutes of chaos as we looked to adapt, and we were pretty fortunate to stay in the game. As ever this tournament, Stones and Guehi stood up to the task, and Pickford proved himself as a tournament-worthy keeper.
Unsurprisingly Southgate responded by changing the approach, hauling the ineffectual Kane off and looking to be more penetrative. Lo and behold, for 15 minutes we had Spain second guessing themselves, we equalised with some neat play that was started by having Watkins and Saka able to run at backtracking defenders. If England had anything else in the tank, they might’ve pulled ahead.
Spain’s second was distinctly similar to the first. They play over the press, move the ball from right to left, Walker’s out of position and fails to recover quickly enough.
It’s now unavoidable that despite coming into the tournament without a recognised left back, much of England’s problems have come down our right hand side. I think all but two of the goals we conceded this tournament have come from that area, and perhaps the only game we looked convincing was when Walker was taken out of that position and dropped more centrally. England have to move on from Walker in that position now and if he’s to be involved, it’s part of a back three. He’s been absolutely fantastic for England, at times one of (if not the) best right backs in the world, but this looks like a tournament too far for him in that position.
Talk of Kane’s demise is premature though. Yes he’s now the wrong side of 30 and with a litany of injury issues, but he’s just come off the back of a record breaking season in the Bundesliga and he’s never been explosive. He came into the tournament nursing an injury that could’ve been managed better (both at club and country) and just never looked fit. You could perhaps question Southgate here, but Kane’s insisted he’s fit to play and the idea has clearly been that Kane plays himself to match sharpness. That didn’t work, but nobody else is leaving England’s record breaking goalscorer on the bench.
Other performances on the night ranged from good to really quite middling. Shaw dealt with an unenviable task well, Bellingham was industrious and Palmer/Watkins did exactly what was asked of them off the bench. Saka was quiet, but pivotal in the build up to the goal. Mainoo, Rice and Foden were completely ineffective however and could not get near Spain’s possession game, and Rice in particular failed to protect the back four when Spain went more direct.
Southgate on the night I thought identified Spain’s game plan in the first half well and England were set up nicely to contain it. When they changed it up, Southgate was probably unlucky that they scored the first time they went direct, but was maybe too slow to react. When he did, though, he got the subs correct again and put England in a position to equalise and, on another night, maybe snatch a winner.
Spain were the best team throughout the tournament. They’re now the only team to win the Euros winning every match and their best players are in positions England have been weakest this tournament. On balance, you have to say the match and tournament results are fair.
Where do England go from here? There’ll be an urge for knee jerk change, but that has to be resisted. The second youngest average squad age in the tournament and the emergence of future stars like Mainoo, Palmer and Guehi. There are issues to address, full backs and centre forward alongside the general balance, but equally there are players in the U17/U19s waiting in the wings. The likes of Mikey Moore, Ethan Nwaneri, Shea Lacey and Harry Amass are genuine prospects for inclusion in 2026 and beyond. All of the age group squads are stacked with quality, and England/The FA have the infrastructure in place to realise that.
Southgate is at the very least partly responsible for that, and I personally hope he remains in place. Amongst all the clamour to win last night and the stories of what it would mean to specific individuals, I don’t think any resonate as much as Southgate’s. He’s rebuilt the national team, brick by brick, over the last 8 years. He’s taken a crumbling, defunct approach to international football and brought it kicking and screaming into the modern era, all the while amassing a tournament record that most other international managers can only dream of. Each and every member of each squad has loved playing for Southgate, and that speaks volumes. Throughout this tournament Southgate has to had to firefight. No fit left back, a malfunctioning midfield, star players arriving carrying injuries and 50+ game seasons in the legs. And yet, by hook or by crook, we made the final. Winning knockout tournament games has become a habit under Southgate, and no other England manager can claim that.
That’s not to say this tournament hasn’t been without its criticisms. Taking until the knockout stages to solve the midfield puzzle isn’t ideal, and the (at times blind) faith in Kane to come good may well have cost us. A lack of pace has been really detrimental to the balance of the team - see how pivotal Sterling and Rashford have been in previous tournaments for instance. Ultimately, I think a lot of the issues of last night were caused by England having to dig deep and tap energy reserves just to get to the final. Spain, on the other hand, made light work of the group stage and passed through the knockout rounds without ever exerting as much as England had to. These are lessons everyone involved with the set up will have to take forward.
I understand the clamour for tournaments to be won playing thrilling, attacking football. But when has that ever been England?
More to the point, where are the viable alternatives waiting in the wings to deliver it? Let’s start by ruling out foreign managers, because it’d be a mistake to jump back aboard that particular merry go round. Potter was way out of his depth at Chelsea and showed weak squad management, Howe’s Newcastle have been underwhelming and belied an over reliance on individuals. Cooper’s a possibility and would fit the England model, but all the Top Lads who share Southgate memes on social media and say they’d rather watch their club side win an utterly meaningless pre-season game would openly revolt. McKenna’s a future candidate, but needs more experience.
Watching the post-match media today though, Southgate looks broken and I think his comments in the build-up about Sunday’s result not defining him were more pointed than they might have been perceived. His position is now utterly thankless, and I suspect the most likely outcome is he’ll see out his contract and oversee a transition until the end of the year.
Whoever takes over, Southgate’s work must not be ripped up in pursuit of a fresh start. There is a platform to build on. A platform where England actually trouble the latter stages of tournaments, with squads of likeable and talented players comfortable in multiple systems. It’s all there, we just haven’t made the final step forward. Yet.
I thought the game pretty much panned out how it was expected to. In the first half Spain saw much of the ball, looked threatening without ever really creating significant chances, with England looking to mostly contain, but counter where possible. There were a few moments that foreshadowed the broader issues on the night, specifically how Spain spent most of the half probing which channel was weaker, and how to get out of England’s mid-block and press. At one point they had both Williams and Yamal probing Shaw, who pretty admirably stood up to the task. They did eventually work out Walker was the weak link, but too late in the half for them to affect it.
Enormous credit has to go to Luis de la Fuente for his tweaks at HT, which completely changed the game.
Reverting to Williams targeting Walker, choosing to go over England’s press with more direct passing, rather than around, and win the second balls in wide areas was something Spain have done infrequently, and we were just completely unprepared for it. Cue 15 minutes of chaos as we looked to adapt, and we were pretty fortunate to stay in the game. As ever this tournament, Stones and Guehi stood up to the task, and Pickford proved himself as a tournament-worthy keeper.
Unsurprisingly Southgate responded by changing the approach, hauling the ineffectual Kane off and looking to be more penetrative. Lo and behold, for 15 minutes we had Spain second guessing themselves, we equalised with some neat play that was started by having Watkins and Saka able to run at backtracking defenders. If England had anything else in the tank, they might’ve pulled ahead.
Spain’s second was distinctly similar to the first. They play over the press, move the ball from right to left, Walker’s out of position and fails to recover quickly enough.
It’s now unavoidable that despite coming into the tournament without a recognised left back, much of England’s problems have come down our right hand side. I think all but two of the goals we conceded this tournament have come from that area, and perhaps the only game we looked convincing was when Walker was taken out of that position and dropped more centrally. England have to move on from Walker in that position now and if he’s to be involved, it’s part of a back three. He’s been absolutely fantastic for England, at times one of (if not the) best right backs in the world, but this looks like a tournament too far for him in that position.
Talk of Kane’s demise is premature though. Yes he’s now the wrong side of 30 and with a litany of injury issues, but he’s just come off the back of a record breaking season in the Bundesliga and he’s never been explosive. He came into the tournament nursing an injury that could’ve been managed better (both at club and country) and just never looked fit. You could perhaps question Southgate here, but Kane’s insisted he’s fit to play and the idea has clearly been that Kane plays himself to match sharpness. That didn’t work, but nobody else is leaving England’s record breaking goalscorer on the bench.
Other performances on the night ranged from good to really quite middling. Shaw dealt with an unenviable task well, Bellingham was industrious and Palmer/Watkins did exactly what was asked of them off the bench. Saka was quiet, but pivotal in the build up to the goal. Mainoo, Rice and Foden were completely ineffective however and could not get near Spain’s possession game, and Rice in particular failed to protect the back four when Spain went more direct.
Southgate on the night I thought identified Spain’s game plan in the first half well and England were set up nicely to contain it. When they changed it up, Southgate was probably unlucky that they scored the first time they went direct, but was maybe too slow to react. When he did, though, he got the subs correct again and put England in a position to equalise and, on another night, maybe snatch a winner.
Spain were the best team throughout the tournament. They’re now the only team to win the Euros winning every match and their best players are in positions England have been weakest this tournament. On balance, you have to say the match and tournament results are fair.
Where do England go from here? There’ll be an urge for knee jerk change, but that has to be resisted. The second youngest average squad age in the tournament and the emergence of future stars like Mainoo, Palmer and Guehi. There are issues to address, full backs and centre forward alongside the general balance, but equally there are players in the U17/U19s waiting in the wings. The likes of Mikey Moore, Ethan Nwaneri, Shea Lacey and Harry Amass are genuine prospects for inclusion in 2026 and beyond. All of the age group squads are stacked with quality, and England/The FA have the infrastructure in place to realise that.
Southgate is at the very least partly responsible for that, and I personally hope he remains in place. Amongst all the clamour to win last night and the stories of what it would mean to specific individuals, I don’t think any resonate as much as Southgate’s. He’s rebuilt the national team, brick by brick, over the last 8 years. He’s taken a crumbling, defunct approach to international football and brought it kicking and screaming into the modern era, all the while amassing a tournament record that most other international managers can only dream of. Each and every member of each squad has loved playing for Southgate, and that speaks volumes. Throughout this tournament Southgate has to had to firefight. No fit left back, a malfunctioning midfield, star players arriving carrying injuries and 50+ game seasons in the legs. And yet, by hook or by crook, we made the final. Winning knockout tournament games has become a habit under Southgate, and no other England manager can claim that.
That’s not to say this tournament hasn’t been without its criticisms. Taking until the knockout stages to solve the midfield puzzle isn’t ideal, and the (at times blind) faith in Kane to come good may well have cost us. A lack of pace has been really detrimental to the balance of the team - see how pivotal Sterling and Rashford have been in previous tournaments for instance. Ultimately, I think a lot of the issues of last night were caused by England having to dig deep and tap energy reserves just to get to the final. Spain, on the other hand, made light work of the group stage and passed through the knockout rounds without ever exerting as much as England had to. These are lessons everyone involved with the set up will have to take forward.
I understand the clamour for tournaments to be won playing thrilling, attacking football. But when has that ever been England?
More to the point, where are the viable alternatives waiting in the wings to deliver it? Let’s start by ruling out foreign managers, because it’d be a mistake to jump back aboard that particular merry go round. Potter was way out of his depth at Chelsea and showed weak squad management, Howe’s Newcastle have been underwhelming and belied an over reliance on individuals. Cooper’s a possibility and would fit the England model, but all the Top Lads who share Southgate memes on social media and say they’d rather watch their club side win an utterly meaningless pre-season game would openly revolt. McKenna’s a future candidate, but needs more experience.
Watching the post-match media today though, Southgate looks broken and I think his comments in the build-up about Sunday’s result not defining him were more pointed than they might have been perceived. His position is now utterly thankless, and I suspect the most likely outcome is he’ll see out his contract and oversee a transition until the end of the year.
Whoever takes over, Southgate’s work must not be ripped up in pursuit of a fresh start. There is a platform to build on. A platform where England actually trouble the latter stages of tournaments, with squads of likeable and talented players comfortable in multiple systems. It’s all there, we just haven’t made the final step forward. Yet.
Target man
Striker
The amount of youngsters crying in their beer last night, saying what a terrible 3 years in their lifetime.
Just in my lifetime memories:
WC 86 - Maradona hand of God
Euro 88 - England 0 Ireland 1
WC 90 - Waddle and Pearce missed pens
Euro 92 - England 1 Sweden 2
WC 94 - Did not qualify
Euro 96 (at home) - Southgate missed pen
98 - Batty and Ince missed pens, and Beckham sending off.
Euro 2000 - Philip Neville penalty give away to Romania. Lost 3-2.
WC 2002 - Seaman got lobbed by Ronaldinho.
Euro 2004 - Sol Campbell disallowed goal
WC 2006 - Rooney sent off. Gerrard, Lampard and Carragher missed pens.
Euro 2008 - didn't even make the competition
WC 2010 - Lampard disallowed goal
Euro 2012 - lost to Italy on penalties.
WC 2014 - didn't get through the group stages.
Euro 2016 England 1 Iceland 2
WC 2018 - Semi final loss to Croatia
Euro 2020 (at home) - Final loss to Italy
WC 2022 - lost to France QF
Euro 2024 - Final loss to Spain
I'd say today's generation hasn't had it so bad .... Welcome to following England!!
Just in my lifetime memories:
WC 86 - Maradona hand of God
Euro 88 - England 0 Ireland 1
WC 90 - Waddle and Pearce missed pens
Euro 92 - England 1 Sweden 2
WC 94 - Did not qualify
Euro 96 (at home) - Southgate missed pen
98 - Batty and Ince missed pens, and Beckham sending off.
Euro 2000 - Philip Neville penalty give away to Romania. Lost 3-2.
WC 2002 - Seaman got lobbed by Ronaldinho.
Euro 2004 - Sol Campbell disallowed goal
WC 2006 - Rooney sent off. Gerrard, Lampard and Carragher missed pens.
Euro 2008 - didn't even make the competition
WC 2010 - Lampard disallowed goal
Euro 2012 - lost to Italy on penalties.
WC 2014 - didn't get through the group stages.
Euro 2016 England 1 Iceland 2
WC 2018 - Semi final loss to Croatia
Euro 2020 (at home) - Final loss to Italy
WC 2022 - lost to France QF
Euro 2024 - Final loss to Spain
I'd say today's generation hasn't had it so bad .... Welcome to following England!!
KevinJH
Illudium Q-36 Operator
Spain deserved winners. I knew we'd lose, sadly as although I don't tend to watch England much, when I do, they lose. Every time and that's why I took a risk last night..... Heck, I even watched the re-run of THAT game in 1966 the other afternoon and we bloody lost !! 
Rob Noxious
Retro Supremo⭐
(Adopts 'Four Yorkshireman' sketch accent): - You were lucky!
WC QF 1970 - Bonetti v West Germany (2-3)
Euro qualifier '72 - Gunter Netzer runs riot at Wembley (1-3, v WG)
WCQ '73 - Jan Tomaszewski, Poland GK, 1-1 (England don't qualify for WC '74)
Euro qualifier '75 - Marian Mazny, Czech winger and winner (1-2), ensures the Czechs qualify for Euro 76 at our expense (though they are eventual winners)
Home Internationals '77 - Scots win at Wembley (2-1) and their hoolies crush the crossbar
1978 - England fail to qualify for the WC, second time in a row
1980 - go out of the Euros after losing to Italy in the group stages
1982 - out of the WC without losing a game
Euros '83 - lose to Denmark 1-0 at Wembley and fail to qualify for Euro 84
... apart from that, there have been some enjoyable times too.
Target man
Striker
I feel your pain!
1973 - year I was born, but the name Tomaszewski is well known!! He had a blinder!! Lol
southendkid
Director⭐
That could easily just him being polite, Klopp can't really say "USA are ****, I can do better than you".
Rob Noxious
Retro Supremo⭐
Sadly, yes. A young Peter Shilton didn't.
Rob Noxious
Retro Supremo⭐
And if Southgate does stay on to 'help the transition', that may well give JK the time he needs.
Napster
No ⭐
Nice to see a reasoned, balanced post. Welcome back, ESB.
Swiss Tony
End of the pier show ⭐⭐🦐
17th Oct a day I and one hundred thousand fans will never forget 1-1 but it should have been 5-1,bloody keeper, the lowest I’ve ever experienced at a match.
londonblue
Topgun Pilot
That's the problem. People forget how bad things have been in the past. When you put it in perspective GS has done an amazing job.
The issue is really that he prefers a conservative style of football and people don't like it. It's been pretty effective though.
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