Promotion and relegation 2019/20 season

[Shrimpergonzo]

‘

As always a very well thought out piece. I haven’t been around much towards the end of the week as things have gotten a little busy as you can imagine.

There are 4 options, the least favourable among the chairman is voiding the league, thats from top to bottom in both divisions, dont get me wrong some like the idea but most (and it is a large amount) don’t. This option would mean no prize money, returning sponsorship etc and most clubs are living hasnt to mouth and do not want to do this, and of course then there are FFP considerations in what happens to this years accounts and that aspect a lot of clubs saying not fair to include of the season didn't happen and finally sporting penalties handed out. Anyway thats one of the options. The other options are PPG, Season ends with results as they are now or the season plays to a finish, this is also not very popular amount chairmen for financial reasons including player contracts (that is a strange one as costs come up but clubs generally play released players till the end of July anyway) however from my side i think it is sensible from both sides (club and player) that the season doesn’t go beyond end of June for L1 and L2.

One of the things I have been looking into is there is a clause in the rules that state any team leaving a competition would have results voided, unless they have completed a certain amount of games, and of that can be use din this circumstance. The clause is ambiguous and something that is being looked into as end in general the season as is revolves around this.

For example if Bury had stated the season the got expelled afire 20 games all those results would be voided, however if the were expelled after say 33 games the results would stand and they other teams playing would get the points, what I have been looking into (with others) is can that be used here, some say yes others say no (I am in this category but i can see why people say yes). One thing os for sure a decision is going to be made soon.

I said ages ago that what ever happens legal challenges would follow, some said i was wrong and that any club doing it was wrong, at the end of the day it comes down to money, always has, always will and at the end of the day always going to happen. It just depends if clubs can afford to do so, if they group together to do so or find other ways.

One more thing the league requires a majority as per the leagues rules to carry any motion, if they get this those legal actions may then be brushed off as the rules are what people sign up to, but then this is unchartered waters and no one can predict what will happen.

Do you think the only way to avoid legal challenges is to void the season completely, even though that may be the least preferable option?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Do you think the only way to avoid legal challenges is to void the season completely, even though that may be the least preferable option?

Avoid, perhaps not. Minimise in number and diminish the chances of (and financial impact of) success - yes.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I am of the opinion that the voiding of the season IS the expected and unwanted end that EFL see happening.
And also they are considering any other reasonable and fair way that the season could be brought to a full conclusion.
By acting out, discussing and having a sort of transparent exploration of options they are hoping to be able to thwart any legal threats made as the natural and time boundary for possible league conclusion window closes.

 

[Chris Powell's mate]

Do you think the only way to avoid legal challenges is to void the season completely, even though that may be the least preferable option?

No one gets anything; therefore no one complains their club has been unfairly treated.
One keeps coming back to the simplest option even if unpalatable.

 

[kentblues]

‘

As always a very well thought out piece. I haven’t been around much towards the end of the week as things have gotten a little busy as you can imagine.

There are 4 options, the least favourable among the chairman is voiding the league, thats from top to bottom in both divisions, dont get me wrong some like the idea but most (and it is a large amount) don’t. This option would mean no prize money, returning sponsorship etc and most clubs are living hasnt to mouth and do not want to do this, and of course then there are FFP considerations in what happens to this years accounts and that aspect a lot of clubs saying not fair to include of the season didn't happen and finally sporting penalties handed out. Anyway thats one of the options. The other options are PPG, Season ends with results as they are now or the season plays to a finish, this is also not very popular amount chairmen for financial reasons including player contracts (that is a strange one as costs come up but clubs generally play released players till the end of July anyway) however from my side i think it is sensible from both sides (club and player) that the season doesn’t go beyond end of June for L1 and L2.

One of the things I have been looking into is there is a clause in the rules that state any team leaving a competition would have results voided, unless they have completed a certain amount of games, and of that can be use din this circumstance. The clause is ambiguous and something that is being looked into as end in general the season as is revolves around this.

For example if Bury had stated the season the got expelled afire 20 games all those results would be voided, however if the were expelled after say 33 games the results would stand and they other teams playing would get the points, what I have been looking into (with others) is can that be used here, some say yes others say no (I am in this category but i can see why people say yes). One thing os for sure a decision is going to be made soon.

I said ages ago that what ever happens legal challenges would follow, some said i was wrong and that any club doing it was wrong, at the end of the day it comes down to money, always has, always will and at the end of the day always going to happen. It just depends if clubs can afford to do so, if they group together to do so or find other ways.

One more thing the league requires a majority as per the leagues rules to carry any motion, if they get this those legal actions may then be brushed off as the rules are what people sign up to, but then this is unchartered waters and no one can predict what will happen.

Very interesting.
On the Bury situation 12.2.1 is clear- don’t complete season the results voided. Even if one game were remaining. Now this is failing to complete fixtures for some specific reasons eg expulsion but is instructive in that this rather than some other methodology (eg PPG) is used- taken with definition of season and the fact that section 10 requires promotion and relegation to happen at the end of the season rather leads to a certain conclusion.

I suspect actually the argument will also be made that it was entirely possible and foreseeable for the EFL to have inserted into the rules what would happen if the season did not complete- and they didn’t- so the conclusion is that they expected promotion and relegation not to happen in line with their own rules and in the absence of any other guide on not completing all games fixtures voided.

They could reasonably argue that voiding was indeed only intended in the specific circumstances relating to an individual club, in which case you end up with the season not completing, with results standing, but no promotion or relegation. How this concept of no need to void plays into you financial piece I am not sure

 

[Westcliff DGS]

N

Do you think the only way to avoid legal challenges is to void the season completely, even though that may be the least preferable option?

no s that will also lead to challenges probably more re other issues other than where people would have finished. Bolton would bring a case in penalties were re added etc

 

[kentblues]

N

no s that will also lead to challenges probably more re other issues other than where people would have finished. Bolton would bring a case in penalties were re added etc

I think the EFL may be helped by the fact that there is I think under their rules nothing to stop them saying the season is ended, the results stand, as per the rules of the competition all games having not been completed there are no promotions and relegations.

All penalties will have been issued and served this season as it is not voided.

This leaves any clubs wanting to sue in the weakest possible position as the EFL are going to be able to say they are merely exactly enforcing the rules that all signed up to at the beginning.

 

[Mick]

All penalties will have been issued and served this season as it is not voided.

Even with voided seasons, suspensions that existed at the start of the season are deemed served and disciplinary issues arising stay on record or are still to be dealt with.

 

[Westcliff DGS]

I think the EFL may be helped by the fact that there is I think under their rules nothing to stop them saying the season is ended, the results stand, as per the rules of the competition all games having not been completed there are no promotions and relegations.

All penalties will have been issued and served this season as it is not voided.

This leaves any clubs wanting to sue in the weakest possible position as the EFL are going to be able to say they are merely exactly enforcing the rules that all signed up to at the beginning.

There is that possibility, in my own opinion they do not want to make a decision as that could open them up, so they will leave it to a vote and let the consensus stand and there for it is seen as democratic.

the last week has been so hectic, I haven’t stopped u can tell you

 

[Westcliff DGS]

Even with voided seasons, suspensions that existed at the start of the season are deemed served and disciplinary issues arising stay on record or are still to be dealt with.

thats how i saw it, until a meeting 2 weeks ago when it was bought up

 

[Shrimpergonzo]

I guess this comes down to the difference between “ended” and “completed” - the lawyers will be having a field day!

 

[camden shrimper]

Is the outcome not voted for by the clubs too? Or am I missing something, that certainly seemed to be the case in the Premiership. And if X % voted for it then it would be carried through, that's the legal 'get out of jail card' the league has surely - yes, there is no statute for this happening and therefore no protocol but the teams involved have voted by a majority for this particular outcome. Surely it would be like not accepting a split decision in boxing as it wasn't unanimous but you went in knowing that a majority vote was enough?

 

[kentblues]

I guess this comes down to the difference between “ended” and “completed” - the lawyers will be having a field day!

Hmm...not so sure at all. Season can end at any point, it is only completed after all fixtures have been completed? Like a game can end at any time for all sorts of reasons but it’s only completed after 90 minutes.

Consensus and democracy is meaningless from a legal standpoint I think. I can believe the EFL hoping by not making the decision themselves and leaving it to the clubs that may think they can somehow hide in plain sight.

Unfortunately it seems to me increasingly clear that if a club goes to court then the competition rules are in fact clear and the EFL will likely lose. Of course the EFL would say we tried to go with what you all wanted but the nasty judge wouldn’t let us? Is it all now all about the EFL avoiding blame?

 

[kentblues]

Is the outcome not voted for by the clubs too? Or am I missing something, that certainly seemed to be the case in the Premiership. And if X % voted for it then it would be carried through, that's the legal 'get out of jail card' the league has surely - yes, there is no statute for this happening and therefore no protocol but the teams involved have voted by a majority for this particular outcome. Surely it would be like not accepting a split decision in boxing as it wasn't unanimous but you went in knowing that a majority vote was enough?

Well what you are in effect asking is, having signed up to a set of rules at the beginning of the season about relegation and promotion, can a majority of clubs then retrospectively change those rules to the disadvantage of another club. I think even if the rules said the clubs could do this then they would have trouble if it was challenged legally.

Imagine this. A club wins the playoffs but has a chairman who all the other chairmen hate (maybe because of something that have done). So they vote to only have 2 promotions that year?

 

[camden shrimper]

Well what you are in effect asking is, having signed up to a set of rules at the beginning of the season about relegation and promotion, can a majority of clubs then retrospectively change those rules to the disadvantage of another club. I think even if the rules said the clubs could do this then they would have trouble if it was challenged legally.

Imagine this. A club wins the playoffs but has a chairman who all the other chairmen hate (maybe because of something that have done). So they vote to only have 2 promotions that year?

Well, that wouldn't be put forward for a vote though as there isn't a requirement for further thoughts from teams so I am not remotely saying that.
What I am saying is if there is no precedent then it goes to a vote I thought?

 

[Evening Echo]

SOUTHEND United would finish bottom of League One in a new points per game proposal which is believed to be being considered by the EFL.

More...

 

[tallboyblue]

SOUTHEND United would finish bottom of League One in a new points per game proposal which is believed to be being considered by the EFL.

More...

That’s cheered me up no end.

 

[Ricey]

This line alone is exactly why we shouldn’t do it:

‘The points per game proposal was also used in rugby’

 

[Mick]

This line alone is exactly why we shouldn’t do it:

‘The points per game proposal was also used in rugby’

Why ? Football would do well to adopt many of the qualities evident in rugby.

 

[Mick]

Well what you are in effect asking is, having signed up to a set of rules at the beginning of the season about relegation and promotion, can a majority of clubs then retrospectively change those rules to the disadvantage of another club. I think even if the rules said the clubs could do this then they would have trouble if it was challenged legally.

I'm not sure anyone is changing anything. There is clearly (and understandably) a gap in the rules regarding a season ending prematurely due to a global pandemic.

In the absence of such a ruling it seems entirely fair to let all the member clubs vote on firstly whether the season ends now and then, if carried, to vote on how it ends.