Not being paid

[Blueronron]

Subbuteo League....happy days.....a certain AndyT ran our one

I had Zaire team .loved playing with them

 

[Firestorm]

After only having a 10 minute scan through, it all makes horrendous reading and that is just for those companies that are alive rather than dormant with debts.

Topland are based in The British Virgin Islands. surprise surprise, but are massive,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topland_Group

International property and investment group, commercial real estate and a portfolio of 4 hotels... looks like they are the latest backer , replacing British land

the companies house list included Dormant companies , Allied coal for example has been dormant since 2008

 

[GBJ]

SUFC owe the money to other companies in the Group SEL, MD etc etc, those companies have borrowed the money against their assets (the Ground, and other pockets of land around the place)

I think that If RM was to wind the club up, then the club debts would be defaulted , and the asset side of the deal in the Group companies accounts would be null, thus leaving those companies insolvent and they would , in turn fold , this would then be replicated for any other intercompany loans within the RM/ MD "empire" bringing the whole lot down .
Any loans within the MD group secured against RMs private assets would impact on RM and any income he draws from anywhere in the group would go too. Any assets would be sold to by the insolvency firm to limit the liabilities. I would imagine he would not be bankrupt , but he would be seriously compromised .

There are just two outstanding charges on the Companies house web site
A 2007 rent deposit deed and a 1999 Debenture to SEL

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00089767/charges

I haven't looked at the other Group companies yet.

So does it say anywhere in the books, that any of the debts are liable against Ron, personally?

 

[Firestorm]

So does it say anywhere in the books, that any of the debts are liable against Ron, personally?

Companies House only list charges against the companies concerned and not private arrangements for the directors

Also if he has made a personal guarantee that will not be recorded

>>Any personal guarantees you have given for the company (usually to banks, finance companies, landlords and major creditors). This is when you sign an agreement to say that if your business cannot pay the money back, you will pay it back yourself<<

 

[Cricko]

International property and investment group, commercial real estate and a portfolio of 4 hotels... looks like they are the latest backer , replacing British land

the companies house list included Dormant companies , Allied coal for example has been dormant since 2008

Good dectective work Gary.

So in summary atm RM is juggling balls like some demented lunatic, we hope for the outcome will be a nice new shiney 3 sided stadium, but it could all add to be a 20 old year game of Jenga.

 

[SheldonW65]

After only having a 10 minute scan through, it all makes horrendous reading and that is just for those companies that are alive rather than dormant with debts.

Topland are based in The British Virgin Islands. surprise surprise, but are massive,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topland_Group

Christ on a bike Topland have ahem "interesting" characters if that Wiki link is accurate

 

[Cricko]

Christ on a bike Topland have ahem "interesting" characters if that Wiki link is accurate

Have you never seen Ozark on netflix...

 

[SheldonW65]

Have you never seen Ozark on netflix...

**** you that's just cost me £5.99 a month to sign up and check it out

 

[Cricko]

**** you that's just cost me £5.99 a month to sign up and check it out

Hahaha Love it, honestly it's a great insight on a "slightly" larger scale.

 

[kentblues]

SUFC owe the money to other companies in the Group SEL, MD etc etc, those companies have borrowed the money against their assets (the Ground, and other pockets of land around the place)

I think that If RM was to wind the club up, then the club debts would be defaulted , and the asset side of the deal in the Group companies accounts would be null, thus leaving those companies insolvent and they would , in turn fold , this would then be replicated for any other intercompany loans within the RM/ MD "empire" bringing the whole lot down .
Any loans within the MD group secured against RMs private assets would impact on RM and any income he draws from anywhere in the group would go too. Any assets would be sold to by the insolvency firm to limit the liabilities. I would imagine he would not be bankrupt , but he would be seriously compromised .

There are just two outstanding charges on the Companies house web site
A 2007 rent deposit deed and a 1999 Debenture to SEL

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00089767/charges

I haven't looked at the other Group companies yet.

Indeed. And I am sure someone could point to all the previous discussions on finances, the recent tidying up of debts, and satisfaction of securities/charges. But in simple terms we should all be in a position to agree on reviewing the detail that the statement that the club is "£17m in debt" is in isolation at best misleading. Other than the £17m intracompany debt the finances are pretty clean. The real issue is cash flow and the fact that Ron needs to keep putting £1-2m per year in. And when that proves to be not enough (like now) and the FD says I can't pay this or that he then has to find more (which he does- the issue appears to be the ability to find it quickly. Probably because the cash requested has to be leveraged against securities elsewhere in the business- hence lawyers).

It all comes back to the fact that Ron is wealthy by our standards, but not necessary by football chairmen standards- and hence finding £100k in cash at short notice because of cash flow issues, beyond the initial expectation of £1-2m per year of support to the club, not surprisingly, to me at least, causes issues.

BTW having run businesses myself whilst you can say Ron should be intimately aware of impending cash flow issues he will 1. be reliant on the FD correctly forecasting cash flow requirements and availability to meet liabilities 2. unexpected "stuff happens" particularly around timing of flows 3. Ron anyway is probably sailing pretty close to the wind without much in the way of a buffer because until he gets planning cash is very tight across his busineses.

The moment he gets planning (if I know) then the value of RH/FF spirals to many £m and this would change the situation significantly.

 

[GBJ]

Companies House only list charges against the companies concerned and not private arrangements for the directors

Also if he has made a personal guarantee that will not be recorded

>>Any personal guarantees you have given for the company (usually to banks, finance companies, landlords and major creditors). This is when you sign an agreement to say that if your business cannot pay the money back, you will pay it back yourself<<

Interesting, but it doesn’t clear anything up, sadly.

Of course, the only people who will know the true ins and out, are Ron and his benefactors.

 

[kentblues]

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/officers/Ip8g-RPGBn5ez9E-XwY1J2y2NGM/appointments

Companies with Ron listed


Roots Hall Ltd appear to have borrowed from a company called Topland Jupiter and several Charges to Citizen housing

As do SEL Ltd

Martin Dawn PLC have outstanding charges to Redrow homes and McClaren construction

Citizen Housing x 3 is not a RM company, but its run by his son Jack
Although Citizen housing LLP is owned by two companies Lenrose Housing (a Jack Martin Company) and Allied Housing

Elounda LLP (another JM company ) appear to have borrowed from a company called Topland Jupiter and have a charge to Citizen housing

In effect (substance over form) all this is intracompany debt with the main source of funds being security on assets of the various Group property companies (not surprisingly as he is a developer). Who runs runs them, how the shares are distributed, probably has to do with 1. tax planning 2. (and a certain Mr. Branson is a good case study here I think) creating separate entities that could, in extremis, fail independently. Although given the great debate on finances it is interesting that all Ron's companies keep going.

 

[GBJ]

Indeed. And I am sure someone could point to all the previous discussions on finances, the recent tidying up of debts, and satisfaction of securities/charges. But in simple terms we should all be in a position to agree on reviewing the detail that the statement that the club is "£17m in debt" is in isolation at best misleading. Other than the £17m intracompany debt the finances are pretty clean. The real issue is cash flow and the fact that Ron needs to keep putting £1-2m per year in. And when that proves to be not enough (like now) and the FD says I can't pay this or that he then has to find more (which he does- the issue appears to be the ability to find it quickly. Probably because the cash requested has to be leveraged against securities elsewhere in the business- hence lawyers).

It all comes back to the fact that Ron is wealthy by our standards, but not necessary by football chairmen standards- and hence finding £100k in cash at short notice because of cash flow issues, beyond the initial expectation of £1-2m per year of support to the club, not surprisingly, to me at least, causes issues.

BTW having run businesses myself whilst you can say Ron should be intimately aware of impending cash flow issues he will 1. be reliant on the FD correctly forecasting cash flow requirements and availability to meet liabilities 2. unexpected "stuff happens" particularly around timing of flows 3. Ron anyway is probably sailing pretty close to the wind without much in the way of a buffer because until he gets planning cash is very tight across his busineses.

The moment he gets planning (if I know) then the value of RH/FF spirals to many £m and this would change the situation significantly.

I agree it’s certainly misleading. Well, to a degree.

It seems that we don’t owe money all over the place, we (SUFC) have one real creditor. Ron.

Interesting you mentioned a buffer. We are that buffer, no? We’re being used to deliver Ron’s dream, and in the process we’re the ones who are at risk of losing everything.

Us fans have simply been suckered into this pipe dream of a new stadium which will sustain us in the future & allow us to become the next big thing... which of course, is a load of bollocks.

Still think Ron is putting his own money into the club? I mean, he claimed he’d paid the remaining outstanding wages out of his own pocket two days ago... and yet, here we are.

 

[kentblues]

International property and investment group, commercial real estate and a portfolio of 4 hotels... looks like they are the latest backer , replacing British land

the companies house list included Dormant companies , Allied coal for example has been dormant since 2008

This is indeed interesting. Again it re-iterates in a way that availability of people will to fund the project once there is planning approval is not the issue it once was. i really do think its true he no longer need BL in the middle diluting profits.

The bit I am not sure is necessary fully grasped is that it is entry normal for property development companies to leverage assets (land etc.) for working capital. So when you look at all this debt if it is so secured then its not necessarily debt in the sense he owes all this money without any means of satisfying the debt. Indeed this is why all these companies stay afloat.

The reason why HMRC say the football club is insolvent, is less about the "debt" but around they see the club simply creates nowhere near enough income to meet its liabilities. It is reliant on the largesse of a chairman- its not guaranteed nor can it be relied upon. As we have pointed out before on this basis many many football clubs are technically insolvent but if they pay their tax HMRC don't care.

 

[GBJ]

Christ on a bike Topland have ahem "interesting" characters if that Wiki link is accurate

Should fit in well here then

 

[GBJ]

This is indeed interesting. Again it re-iterates in a way that availability of people will to fund the project once there is planning approval is not the issue it once was. i really do think its true he no longer need BL in the middle diluting profits.

Not being funny, but any company that latches onto SUFC, that The UK Government accuses of "deceit, fraud by bribery, dishonest assistance and breach of confidence" and "unlawful conspiracy" shouldn’t be celebrated, but instead highly scrutinised.

I mean, if there’s anyone who understands deceit, bribery & unlawful conspiracy, it’s the government

 

[kentblues]

I agree it’s certainly misleading. Well, to a degree.

It seems that we don’t owe money all over the place, we (SUFC) have one real creditor. Ron.
Correct

Interesting you mentioned a buffer. We are that buffer, no? We’re being used to deliver Ron’s dream, and in the process we’re the ones who are at risk of losing everything.
No buffer in the sense of providing cash flow above and beyond what is needed as a contingency/ just in case.

Us fans have simply been suckered into this pipe dream of a new stadium which will sustain us in the future & allow us to become the next big thing... which of course, is a load of bollocks.
Well it is all opinion- and depends what we want. If we want a football club that needs to be competitive at L1 or maybe Championship level then we 1. need to be self sustaining or 2. reliant on a chairman with deep pockets. Actually the "pipe dream" if successful would see us in a new stadium, with no debt, and significantly enhanced revenue streams. So point 1. above. Option 2. is no real security or sustainable (and rich benefactors have a habit of dying eventually). Which leaves, perhaps, being happy with mid table survival in say league 2 paying wages only that our income says we can afford. We can say we would want that now- but I suspect when it came that would get forgotten very quickly.

Still think Ron is putting his own money into the club? I mean, he claimed he’d paid the remaining outstanding wages out of his own pocket two days ago... and yet, here we are.
I do think we have to stop thinking that any gap in funds comes from anywhere other than Ron. It doesn't. Whether it comes from his own private money or more likely from his other companies is really a mute point.

As supporters we have a right to be frustrated, its the club we follow and love. But actually there is no evidence of that. Indeed having worked with certain industries where letting companies go bankrupt, leaving a trail of debt, only then to buy out them back out of administration for next to nothing as a "pre-pack", Ron's apparent approach of keeping companies afloat and eventually serving debt in my experience suggests he is far from a con man.

Disclaimer: All looking from the outside of course. My opinion is no more valid than anyone else's.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

......and there was me thinking that they only came round to join our Subbuteo League......

Nah,that was for non-professional footballers only.

 

[blues exile]

Not being funny, but any company that latches onto SUFC, that The UK Government accuses of "deceit, fraud by bribery, dishonest assistance and breach of confidence" and "unlawful conspiracy" shouldn’t be celebrated, but instead highly scrutinised.

I mean, if there’s anyone who understands deceit, bribery & unlawful conspiracy, it’s the government

Topland made a large donation to the Tories, and the case was conveniently settled out of court.

 

[GBJ]

Well it is all opinion- and depends what we want. If we want a football club that needs to be competitive at L1 or maybe Championship level then we 1. need to be self sustaining or 2. reliant on a chairman with deep pockets

And the question of sustainability within a new ground, has often been discussed, and never actually proven that we will be.

We’re basing that hope on what Ron says, and frankly, I take every single thing that comes out of that man’s mouth, with justified scepticism.

From the moment he mentioned the new ground could host World Title fights, I knew he was off his head.

Actually the "pipe dream" if successful would see us in a new stadium, with no debt, and significantly enhanced revenue streams

We’re beholden to Ron’s word on those points.

Again, see above.

I do think we have to stop thinking that any gap in funds comes from anywhere other than Ron. It doesn't. Whether it comes from his own private money or more likely from his other companies is really a mute point.

It really isn’t a moot point at all. The money seems to keep appearing from somewhere, and SUFC are liable for it.

As supporters we have a right to be frustrated, its the club we follow and love. But actually there is no evidence of that

I’m not sure I can answer that, without writing something that could be seen as libellous. I’ll have to check with a certain owner.

For now though, I’ll just say that Ron told the world two days ago, that the players were going to be paid that day, and he was doing it out of his own pocket - you know, ‘cos we’re so dependant on him.

As of today, they haven’t been paid.

Make of it, what you will.