Nelson Mandela Dead

[Pubey]

He was convicted for sabotage and conspiring to overthrow the government. There seems to be an assumption by a few on here that he was convicted of murder which he was not.
The burning tyres thing is a sickening image but has nothing to do with Mandela.

Cheers, that's about as far as my research and digging got me.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Agree Kay the adulation given to complete no marks in life is my biggest hate.

I find celebrity adulation strange but regardless of people's views on him, one thing Mandela wasn't was a no mark. I don't subscribe to the "Great Man" view of history but Mandela was clearly the most significant leader on a whole continent.

 

[DTS]

I find celebrity adulation strange but regardless of people's views on him, one thing Mandela wasn't was a no mark. I don't subscribe to the "Great Man" view of history but Mandela was clearly the most significant leader on a whole continent.

Sorry wasn't saying Mandela was a no-mark. Was referring to various reality TV people. Clearly an individual who has a massive influence on a nation. Just don't think the media give a very balanced view when it comes to him.

 

[GBJ]

In general I don't believe in violence for political reasons - but the reasons behind Huntley and Mandela are so completely different I think the analogy is completely ludicrous. Mandela may have done awful things, but for good reason. The results of his actions are very clearly good for SA and universally praised. Just perhaps, his actions were justified?

You're missing the point of the analogy then. Again, I'm not comparing the reasoning behind either mans actions & I'm not even comparing the actions. I'm comparing this attitude of forgiveness. Both men committed violent crimes. That is a fact. But because one of them has spent half his life trying to atone for that, everyone's up for forgiveness. My point was, if Huntley were to follow the same path & possibly achieve some supercool feat, would anyone's opinions of him change? **** no, and as well they shouldn't.

I cannot give you proof, as I don't have it. Well, unless you call being in clink for 27 years proof, I don't know? It's not as if he's ever going to admit to these crimes? He DID admit to doing bad things though, although this hasn't been elaborated on. I'm simply reading between the lines & taking an educated guess. But if you're that stubborn & one-sided to not even acknowledge these things were possible, then that's your prerogative.

How do you justify, allegedly, bombing a shopping centre full of innocent people? If your family were in there, would you have the same idea, that it was justified? Would you ****. So what if SA is better now, what about the families and lives that have forever been torn apart because of it? Do you think they feel it was justified?

 

[MK Shrimper]

Not sure my feelings on this.

Well I hate South Africans,

Why? .......

 

[Uncle Leo]

Why? .......

He's never met a nice one

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

You're missing the point of the analogy then. Again, I'm not comparing the reasoning behind either mans actions & I'm not even comparing the actions. I'm comparing this attitude of forgiveness. Both men committed violent crimes. That is a fact. But because one of them has spent half his life trying to atone for that, everyone's up for forgiveness. My point was, if Huntley were to follow the same path & possibly achieve some supercool feat, would anyone's opinions of him change? **** no, and as well they shouldn't.

I cannot give you proof, as I don't have it. Well, unless you call being in clink for 27 years proof, I don't know? It's not as if he's ever going to admit to these crimes? He DID admit to doing bad things though, although this hasn't been elaborated on. I'm simply reading between the lines & taking an educated guess. But if you're that stubborn & one-sided to not even acknowledge these things were possible, then that's your prerogative.

How do you justify, allegedly, bombing a shopping centre full of innocent people? If your family were in there, would you have the same idea, that it was justified? Would you ****. So what if SA is better now, what about the families and lives that have forever been torn apart because of it? Do you think they feel it was justified?

I thought you believed Britain was a Christian country?

Christianity is based on forgiveness.

 

[Pubey]

You're missing the point of the analogy then. Again, I'm not comparing the reasoning behind either mans actions & I'm not even comparing the actions. I'm comparing this attitude of forgiveness. Both men committed violent crimes. That is a fact. But because one of them has spent half his life trying to atone for that, everyone's up for forgiveness. My point was, if Huntley were to follow the same path & possibly achieve some supercool feat, would anyone's opinions of him change? **** no, and as well they shouldn't.

I'm still baffled by this comparison. I'll probably leave it.

I cannot give you proof, as I don't have it.

ok

Well, unless you call being in clink for 27 years proof, I don't know?

He was in prison for sabotage and trying to overthrow the government. This was brutal and fundamentally racist government. He wasn't in prison for murder.

It's not as if he's ever going to admit to these crimes?

Why? plenty of people commit crimes and admit to them. He admitted to some things, and didn't admit to other things (things there doesn't seem to be any proof or charge against him anyway!)

He DID admit to doing bad things though, although this hasn't been elaborated on.

Yes he did. he was involved with blowing up power lines. I'm still not sure where there is proof that he was involved with bombing and killing people. I've read loads about it previously, and even more last night and today - I'm still not clear.

I'm simply reading between the lines & taking an educated guess. But if you're that stubborn & one-sided to not even acknowledge these things were possible, then that's your prerogative.

No need to get personal. Anything is possible, however I like to attribute weight to evidence and avoid guessing. It's what I do for a living, and it's what I'm trying to do now. Was Mandela a terrorist? Maybe. Did a lot of good come from the work that he spent 95 years doing - undoubtedly. On the balance of things, maybe he was a pretty decent guy who deserves some respect, especially as he was undoubtedly repentant and humble, and forgave others.

How do you justify, allegedly, bombing a shopping centre full of innocent people? If your family were in there, would you have the same idea, that it was justified? Would you ****. So what if SA is better now, what about the families and lives that have forever been torn apart because of it? Do you think they feel it was justified?

Allegedly? Did he do it or not? Are you on about the bombings in the 80s when NM was locked away on an island? I don't think violence against innocent civilians is ever justified.

 

[GBJ]

I thought you believed Britain was a Christian country?

Christianity is based on forgiveness.

Unless someone can tell me different, I thought England has always been a mainly Catholic/Christian country.

I don't believe in Christianity though. I don't believe in any religion for that matter & Neither do I believe in forgiveness for people who inflict pain & suffering on innocents, whoever the offender is

 

[GBJ]

I'm still baffled by this comparison. I'll probably leave it.


ok


He was in prison for sabotage and trying to overthrow the government. This was brutal and fundamentally racist government. He wasn't in prison for murder.


Why? plenty of people commit crimes and admit to them. He admitted to some things, and didn't admit to other things (things there doesn't seem to be any proof or charge against him anyway!)


Yes he did. he was involved with blowing up power lines. I'm still not sure where there is proof that he was involved with bombing and killing people. I've read loads about it previously, and even more last night and today - I'm still not clear.


No need to get personal. Anything is possible, however I like to attribute weight to evidence and avoid guessing. It's what I do for a living, and it's what I'm trying to do now. Was Mandela a terrorist? Maybe. Did a lot of good come from the work that he spent 95 years doing - undoubtedly. On the balance of things, maybe he was a pretty decent guy who deserves some respect, especially as he was undoubtedly repentant and humble, and forgave others.


Allegedly? Did he do it or not? Are you on about the bombings in the 80s when NM was locked away on an island? I don't think violence against innocent civilians is ever justified.

Seeing as this will need some time to reply to & is not a quick 2 minute response, I'll answer you later, after work.

 

[Pubey]

Question for GBJ, TB, DTS etc:

Imagine this.

We're all White British football fans. Imagine our country was suddenly taken over by another race of people (for instance, Australians). Imagine that they ran the country, destroyed our culture (all pubs only served Fosters, the only TV was Home & Away). They started to segregate the Australian immigrants and indigenous Brits. If you didn't meet their laws, then horrible things happened, like:

shot for protesting
everyone was squeezed into 13% of the total land - Yorkshire?
Social conservatism banned lots of stuff.Women were oppressed, many people forced into poverty. Approximately 40,000 people were whipped brutally each year. You weren't allowed to freely move. Fleeing was pretty much impossible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_in_South_Africa

If some inspiring leaders were organising a revolution/militant opposition to this, to establish equality and freedom for the oppressed Brits - would you take part? Would you take part in sabotaging the governments infrastructure? Would you try and assassinate the leaders?

Just curious.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Unless someone can tell me different, I thought England has always been a mainly Catholic/Christian country.

I don't believe in Christianity though. I don't believe in any religion for that matter & Neither do I believe in forgiveness for people who inflict pain & suffering on innocents, whoever the offender is

Apologies, I thought you was someone who opposed Muslim ideas supposedly replacing our Christian beliefs.

I think England has basically been predominantly Christian since later Roman times, but I'm not too hot on my Dark Ages history and think the Danes/Vikings were pagan.

 

[Ricey]

Why? .......

I've met plenty in my travels and worked with a fair amount and every single one is an arrogant arsehole. They have no manners and are just down right arrogant. I know I shouldn't tarnish them all with the same brush but the amount I have met with and worked with doesn't bode well so I will tarnish them all as arrogant arseholes. My opinion!

 

[MK Shrimper]

I've met plenty in my travels and worked with a fair amount and every single one is an arrogant arsehole. They have no manners and are just down right arrogant. I know I shouldn't tarnish them all with the same brush but the amount I have met with and worked with doesn't bode well so I will tarnish them all as arrogant arseholes. My opinion!

You should remember the ones in the English Cricket team that have won us a few Ashes!

 

[Swiss Tony]

I've met plenty in my travels and worked with a fair amount and every single one is an arrogant arsehole. They have no manners and are just down right arrogant. I know I shouldn't tarnish them all with the same brush but the amount I have met with and worked with doesn't bode well so I will tarnish them all as arrogant arseholes. My opinion!

Agreed,i have worked with maybe 50 of them over the last 15 years,and everyone to a man was a nasty arrogant ******.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

At least her husband didn't order any burning tyres to be hung around opponents necks.

Totally this

 

[Hotman]

Question for GBJ, TB, DTS etc:

Imagine this.

We're all White British football fans. Imagine our country was suddenly taken over by another race of people (for instance, Asians). Imagine that they ran the country, destroyed our culture (all pubs only served halal food, the only TV was Al Jazeera). They started to segregate the Asian immigrants and indigenous Brits. If you didn't meet their Sharia laws, then horrible things happened, like:

beheadings
Social conservatism banned lots of stuff.Women were oppressed, many people forced into poverty.

If some inspiring leaders were organising a revolution/militant opposition to this, to establish equality and freedom for the oppressed Brits - would you take part? Or would you be deemed to be 'racist'?

Just curious.

#justsaying

 

[chapperzUK]

Question for GBJ, TB, DTS etc:

Imagine this.

We're all White British football fans. Imagine our country was suddenly taken over by another race of people (for instance, Australians). Imagine that they ran the country, destroyed our culture (all pubs only served Fosters, the only TV was Home & Away). They started to segregate the Australian immigrants and indigenous Brits. If you didn't meet their laws, then horrible things happened, like:

shot for protesting
everyone was squeezed into 13% of the total land - Yorkshire?
Social conservatism banned lots of stuff.Women were oppressed, many people forced into poverty. Approximately 40,000 people were whipped brutally each year. You weren't allowed to freely move. Fleeing was pretty much impossible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_in_South_Africa

If some inspiring leaders were organising a revolution/militant opposition to this, to establish equality and freedom for the oppressed Brits - would you take part? Would you take part in sabotaging the governments infrastructure? Would you try and assassinate the leaders?

Just curious.

Spot on. It seems very easy to take his crimes out of context. I am curious as to how those who pass Mandela off as a "terrorist" would react in the situation above, would you stay out of trouble and just accept that you will be treated like animals your entire like or stand up against it?

 

[McNasty]

I wonder how the world would be if he had been hanged all those years ago.

 

[Ricey]

You should remember the ones in the English Cricket team that have won us a few Ashes!

I haven't met them but KP comes across as arrogant.