Nelson Mandela Dead

[GBJ]

The amount of adulation that pop stars gave him is another matter entirely though, always sickened me.

Not only them, but people on Facebook, who write "so sad, RIP", or something of that nature, purely because it is the cool/hip/in thing to do, when in reality they probably know **** all about him & the history. In fairness, that's not just for Mandela though, but any/most famous figures that croak. Sheep

 

[Jam_Man]

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Indeed.

He fought an oppressive regime that enforced apartheid. That is not the same as someone like Gerry Addams who just wants Ireland back, the people of which were not being oppressed by the British regime.

Im sure many Germans in the 40's believed Churchill and co to be rather unpleasant too.

Whilst Mandela's methods cant be condoned the context they were carried out in does need to be taken into account before anyone just blindly writes him off as "evil".

Someone green this on my behalf please x

Also, just to add, you wouldn't change your mind/opinion about someone like Ian Huntley in 20-30 years time, no matter what he does. He could save the Earth from total destruction, but to me he'd always be a nonce scumbag, who doesn't deserve the gift of life.

It's a different scale/set of circumstances, but the premise is the same.

Huntley didnt do his "wrongs" to bring about positive change to a nation though did he?

Very unfair to compare a person doing evil for evils sake with someone who was trying to change the country for the better.

Was Boudica a terrorist because she tried to oust the Romans, was George Washington and gang terrorists for ousting the British ?

Its all about context and motive.

 

[Blue_Wes]

Someone green this on my behalf please x

Also, just to add, you wouldn't change your mind/opinion about someone like Ian Huntley in 20-30 years time, no matter what he does. He could save the Earth from total destruction, but to me he'd always be a nonce scumbag, who doesn't deserve the gift of life.

It's a different scale/set of circumstances, but the premise is the same.

Green Done.

I suppose the one thing you can say about NM is, that normally when someone commits an attrocity of any nature, the general reaction is for them to crawl under a stone and try and live out their lives forgetting their past, trying to hide the fact it ever happened and hoping not to be noticed.

NM kept himself in the public eye, never trying to forget the attrocities he committed, put himself on a pedestal to be knocked down and tirelessly tried to atone the wrongs he committed. Clearly I'd rather a wrong was never committed in the first place, but sadly it always will, so I'd much rather see those that commit them, spend their lives atoning for those wrongs.

 

[Pubey]

Indeed.

He fought an oppressive regime that enforced apartheid. That is not the same as someone like Gerry Addams who just wants Ireland back, the people of which were not being oppressed by the British regime.

Im sure many Germans in the 40's believed Churchill and co to be rather unpleasant too.

Whilst Mandela's methods cant be condoned the context they were carried out in does need to be taken into account before anyone just blindly writes him off as "evil".

Top posting Jam_Man.

 

[TrueBlue]

For some one who feels the EDF is the answer to our problems, it would be hard to have a decent debate,without someone who is narrow minded and doesnot see a bigger picture

UTS

Ps EDF was suppose to lighten the mood as not stating EDL, but seems some private messages have missed the joke

UTS

UKIP is my outlook

 

[Jam_Man]

UKIP is my outlook

They have their own email software now?

 

[TrueBlue]

Top posting Jam_Man.

If there was no European influence in South Africa would there have been a developed country? Would there be any kind of developement?

 

[GBJ]

Green Done.

I suppose the one thing you can say about NM is, that normally when someone commits an attrocity of any nature, the general reaction is for them to crawl under a stone and try and live out their lives forgetting their past, trying to hide the fact it ever happened and hoping not to be noticed.

NM kept himself in the public eye, never trying to forget the attrocities he committed, put himself on a pedestal to be knocked down and tirelessly tried to atone the wrongs he committed. Clearly I'd rather a wrong was never committed in the first place, but sadly it always will, so I'd much rather see those that commit them, spend their lives atoning for those wrongs.

Fair play, you're right in what you say, and trying to atone for it, is commendable in itself. But killing & maiming innocent people is unforgivable IMO. Hanging those who opposed him, with burning tyres around their neck, is unforgivable to me.

Just to clarify my stance, I'm not fussed he's dead. That's not meant in a Callous way. I have no feelings for him (no homo) If he was still alive I wouldn't be bothered & now he's dead I'm not at all bothered. What does bother me, is the endless list of people, celebrities etc who only paint him in one light & very quickly brush over the bad points.

 

[Pubey]

Fair play, you're right in what you say, and trying to atone for it, is commendable in itself. But killing & maiming innocent people is unforgivable IMO. Hanging those who opposed him, with burning tyres around their neck, is unforgivable to me.

Just to clarify my stance, I'm not fussed he's dead. That's not meant in a Callous way. I have no feelings for him (no homo) If he was still alive I wouldn't be bothered & now he's dead I'm not at all bothered. What does bother me, is the endless list of people, celebrities etc who only paint him in one light & very quickly brush over the bad points.

Did Nelson Mandela do this? Genuine question.

 

[Pubey]

If there was no European influence in South Africa would there have been a developed country? Would there be any kind of developement?

I dunno, what do you think?

 

[Pubey]

Message from SUFC

There will be a minute's applause before tomorrow's game vs. @ChesterfieldFC to celebrate the life of Nelson Mandela.

 

[Blue_Wes]

Fair play, you're right in what you say, and trying to atone for it, is commendable in itself. But killing & maiming innocent people is unforgivable IMO. Hanging those who opposed him, with burning tyres around their neck, is unforgivable to me.

Just to clarify my stance, I'm not fussed he's dead. That's not meant in a Callous way. I have no feelings for him (no homo) If he was still alive I wouldn't be bothered & now he's dead I'm not at all bothered. What does bother me, is the endless list of people, celebrities etc who only paint him in one light & very quickly brush over the bad points.

I completely agree by the way, I just prefer those that wrong get the opportunity to atone (I know there is nothing he could really do to fully make up for what he did), but it's better to get something back from them than flat out revenge (death) or an actual life sentence (great cost due his status).

It's also my stance as well. He's led a very complicated life, and there is no black and white way to describe the man, albeit a RIP Facebook status or a good riddance terrorist post.

Ps. Homo!

 

[DTS]

Message from SUFC

Did we have one for Maggie Thatcher when she died. Genuine question? I don't think so personally

 

[Ricey]

Message from SUFC

Not sure my feelings on this.

I don't know a great deal about Mandela, I know he did something with South African Rugby. Well I hate South Africans, I hate rugby and Matt Damon was in the film about it and I hate him too.

Although I watched Eddie Izzards Mandela Marathons and that gave me a little insight but not enough for me to give the man applause. I'm not at the game but really not sure about the need for us in ENGLAND to celebrate the life of a man who some see as a terrorist and some of us know **** all about.

 

[GBJ]

Did Nelson Mandela do this? Genuine question.

If you mean, has he admitted to it, then no, not as far as I know. He has admitted he was part of some awful things in different publications though. I highly doubt he means he once cheated at monopoly.

Secondly, You've gave me red rep as asked if I was comparing NM to Ian Huntley. No. No i'm not. I'm comparing the premise we should forgive and forget one man's violent indiscretions, but would we for another?

 

[GBJ]

Ps. Homo!

:hilarious:

Get your arse back into the boxing thread & admit I'm right b*tch :thumbsup:

 

[Uncle Leo]

Well I hate South Africans, I hate rugby and Matt Damon was in the film about it and I hate him too.

Feeling the love there.

Mandela handed out the trophy to Francois Pienaar when SA won the 1995 Rugby Union World Cup. A highly symbolic moment - a black president handing over the trophy to an archetypal white South African, while wearing the green Springbok shirt. For all the years that no black man was allowed to wear that shirt, it had become a potent symbol of all that was wrong with apartheid. I'm no union fan, but it was truly iconic.

As for a minutes applause at Chesterfield I'm not sure I see the value in this. I'm generally against the proliferation of silences/applause at football games to commemorate the deaths of public figures. Football greats yes, and of course around Remembrance Day or moments of true national tragedy, but not for those from outside of the game

 

[DTS]

Feeling the love there.

Mandela handed out the trophy to Francois Pienaar when SA won the 1995 Rugby Union World Cup. A highly symbolic moment - a black president handing over the trophy to an archetypal white South African, while wearing the green Springbok shirt. For all the years that no black man was allowed to wear that shirt, it had become a potent symbol of all that was wrong with apartheid. I'm no union fan, but it was truly iconic.

As for a minutes applause at Chesterfield I'm not sure I see the value in this. I'm generally against the proliferation of silences/applause at football games to commemorate the deaths of public figures. Football greats yes, and of course around Remembrance Day or moments of true national tragedy, but not for those from outside of the game

Agree with this. I think they should be reserved for really special occasions as too many minutes silence cheapens the importance.

 

[Pubey]

If you mean, has he admitted to it, then no, not as far as I know. He has admitted he was part of some awful things in different publications though. I highly doubt he means he once cheated at monopoly.

You seem sure that he did these things.

Yes he did good towards the end, but does that exonerate him for all the atrocities that occurred either by his hand, or under his watch?

I want some proof.

Secondly, You've gave me red rep as asked if I was comparing NM to Ian Huntley. No. No i'm not. I'm comparing the premise we should forgive and forget one man's violent indiscretions, but would we for another?

Stop moaning about rep.

In general I don't believe in violence for political reasons - but the reasons behind Huntley and Mandela are so completely different I think the analogy is completely ludicrous. Mandela may have done awful things, but for good reason. The results of his actions are very clearly good for SA and universally praised. Just perhaps, his actions were justified?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Did Nelson Mandela do this? Genuine question.

He was convicted for sabotage and conspiring to overthrow the government. There seems to be an assumption by a few on here that he was convicted of murder which he was not.
The burning tyres thing is a sickening image but has nothing to do with Mandela.