Nelson Mandela Dead

[TrueBlue]

And obviously quite a few 'zoners don't.

So thus debate you can't have debate unless one side states their argument first

 

[TrueBlue]

And obviously quite a few 'zoners don't.

And what do you think??? Wait let me guess....

He's black - tick
He promotes left wing argument - tick


Yeah MK loves him

 

[Firestorm]

To me this thread prompts a fairly general question . What is terrorist ?
Is it someone simply someone who promotes or particpates in acts which cause "Terror" in the general public ?
Maybe its someone who uses violent means to try and achieve their political aim ?

The problem is that there will always be someone who fits the definition who others will not see as a terrorist

 

[Blueronron]

So thus debate you can't have debate unless one side states their argument first

For some one who feels the EDF is the answer to our problems, it would be hard to have a decent debate,without someone who is narrow minded and doesnot see a bigger picture

UTS

Ps EDF was suppose to lighten the mood as not stating EDL, but seems some private messages have missed the joke

UTS

 

[Uncle Leo]

Thread title changed. I can only see this thread getting ****** anyway, but changing the title may help calm the waters for five minutes.

 

[South Bank Hank]

Hank, if you're banging on about balance perhaps you should consider changing the baiting nature of the title of this thread.

I commented on the absurdity of viewing Mandela from a single polarised perspective. Sorry if that's 'banging on about balance'.

I'm on mobile and can't do it but if another moderator (ah, there you go James) wanted to change it to a less inflammatory title, I'd understand why. You could however argue the same about editing every other tread that starts with a strong opinion when there's likely to be an opposing view. The idea of the thread is to start discussion.

It's not my view as I've hopefully made clear but 'RIP Mandela' would have been just as offensive to some as the original thread title.

 

[Uncle Leo]

It's not my view as I've hopefully made clear but 'RIP Mandela' would have been just as offensive to some as the original thread title.

Agreed. What I've gone for does read a bit bluntly but it's pretty neutral!

 

[Pubey]

Cheers Uncle Leo

 

[OldBlueLady]

I've kept out of this so far because it's obviously quite emotive for some people. The thing about Mandela is no-one can deny that he did some terrible things, he recognised and admitted this and served quite considerable time for it. I like to think that he atoned for this in later life with the huge amount of good that he did, and that is why he always seemed to go "the extra mile" in pursuit of peace.

People seem to be over-looking though, that without FW de Klerk, I doubt he would have achieved half of what he did. I hope when it's time for de Klerk to pass over that he will be afforded the same kind of tributes that Mandela is currently receiving. I have to say I find the idea of a 12 day state funeral/commemoration, as I just read somewhere, slightly OTT.

 

[duncan bulgaria]

And what do you think??? Wait let me guess....

He's black - tick
He promotes left wing argument - tick
He built a lovely block of flats in Peckham - Tick
Yeah MK loves him

Editted for accuracy

 

[GBJ]

For some one who feels the EDF is the answer to our problems, it would be hard to have a decent debate,without someone who is narrow minded and doesnot see a bigger picture

UTS

Ps EDF was suppose to lighten the mood as not stating EDL, but seems some private messages have missed the joke

UTS

So supporting the EDL makes you narrow minded, and unable to see the bigger picture, no matter what topic is being discussed? Ok

The amount of veiled snobbery aimed at Right Wing Groups, in the case the EDL, is embarrassing. What makes a left winger more reasoned? Infact, Why should a persons political stance, carry a more reputable, throughout thesis anyway?
On most topics, where political stances are involved, it'll be the lefties who'll throw out the insults first, which is of course a diversion tactic, when their argument is sinking. The thinking is... "you're right wing, therefore you're racist, and you couldnt possibly form an educated opinion because after all, you're just trying to pin the blame on the black man". It's biased, insulting & totally wrong. Make no mistake, being of left wing persuasion, makes you NO better than those of right wing persuasion.

I supported a few of the BNP's ideas, (I.e. murderers, rapists & nonces be castaway to an island off Scotland & imprisomed there) Does that make me ineligible to give reasoned, thought out opinions on other worldly matters?

 

[GBJ]

I've kept out of this so far because it's obviously quite emotive for some people. The thing about Mandela is no-one can deny that he did some terrible things, he recognised and admitted this and served quite considerable time for it. I like to think that he atoned for this in later life with the huge amount of good that he did, and that is why he always seemed to go "the extra mile" in pursuit of peace

This for me, is a spot on analysis of the situation. Yes he did good towards the end, but does that exonerate him for all the atrocities that occurred either by his hand, or under his watch? That's the ultimate discussion point in all of this.

 

[pickledseal]

"These are my heroes. This is one of the greatest moments in my life"

Http://mobile.reuters.com/do/getNewsImages?n=5&u=USN1816808220080219

Sorry can't insert image on mobile.

 

[DTS]

I've kept out of this so far because it's obviously quite emotive for some people. The thing about Mandela is no-one can deny that he did some terrible things, he recognised and admitted this and served quite considerable time for it. I like to think that he atoned for this in later life with the huge amount of good that he did, and that is why he always seemed to go "the extra mile" in pursuit of peace.

People seem to be over-looking though, that without FW de Klerk, I doubt he would have achieved half of what he did. I hope when it's time for de Klerk to pass over that he will be afforded the same kind of tributes that Mandela is currently receiving. I have to say I find the idea of a 12 day state funeral/commemoration, as I just read somewhere, slightly OTT.

Playing devils advocate Kay is a rapist later repents for his sins does that make him OK? Not sure you can ever really atone for the murders of hundreds of people?

 

[Pubey]

Did Nelson Mandela murder a lot of people? I thought he was in prison when the MK were torturing/bombing etc.

 

[pickledseal]

Did Nelson Mandela murder a lot of people? I thought he was in prison when the MK were torturing/bombing etc.

That was my question, roughly how many deaths is he responsible for? I tried to find out and only saw 'lots' with little evidence?

 

[Pubey]

That was my question, roughly how many deaths is he responsible for? I tried to find out and only saw 'lots' with little evidence?

I don't get it either. He was found guilty of 'sabotage' but I don't get what he was really charged with and what the MK had done up to the time of his arrest.

He then was in prison and I doubt he really had the means of passing on messages such as "bomb this place now!".

 

[OldBlueLady]

Playing devils advocate Kay is a rapist later repents for his sins does that make him OK? Not sure you can ever really atone for the murders of hundreds of people?

I know, I know, that's why I'd kept out of it, you can't deny what had gone on in his earlier life. I think it's the scale of the levels that he went to, with de Klerk, to rectify the many wrongs that had gone on in South Africa that make me believe that he became a great man, and why I do admire a lot of what he stood for in later life. The amount of adulation that pop stars gave him is another matter entirely though, always sickened me.

 

[DTS]

Agree Kay the adulation given to complete no marks in life is my biggest hate.

 

[GBJ]

Playing devils advocate Kay is a rapist later repents for his sins does that make him OK? Not sure you can ever really atone for the murders of hundreds of people?

Someone green this on my behalf please x

Also, just to add, you wouldn't change your mind/opinion about someone like Ian Huntley in 20-30 years time, no matter what he does. He could save the Earth from total destruction, but to me he'd always be a nonce scumbag, who doesn't deserve the gift of life.

It's a different scale/set of circumstances, but the premise is the same.