Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

[Tangled up in Blue]

Are you saying here that ideological purity is more important than forming a government? What is the point of the Labour Party if that is the case?

I remember campaigning for the Labour party in both elections in 1974, when Labour promised in its manifesto:-

"a fundamental and irreversible shift in the balance of power and wealth in favour of working people and their families."

That's the sort of Labour party I happen to believe in.

So my answer to your first question would be yes.Interestingly, Labour won both elections that year!

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I remember campaigning for the Labour party in both elections in 1974, when Labour promised in its manifesto:-

"a fundamental and irreversible shift in the balance of power and wealth in favour of working people and their families."

That's the sort of Labour party I happen to believe in.

So my answer to your first question would be yes.Interestingly, Labour won both elections that year!

So they won and what happened to the promise? more political spin and ideology than substance?

 

[callan]

Are you saying here that ideological purity is more important than forming a government? What is the point of the Labour Party if that is the case?

Surely the point of any Political party not in power is to offer an alternative to what we currently have.

If that alternative is popular enough then that party can be the engineer of a change.

What we had in the last election was no real alternative other than perhaps UKIP and the SNP in Scotland.

Personally I would rather see the Labour party return to its roots, than mimic the Tories.

 

[Rob Noxious]

So they won and what happened to the promise? more political spin and ideology than substance?

They made some progress with higher taxation of the rich and sexual equality legislation but ultimately had to go 'cap in hand' to the IMF who insisted on big cuts in public expenditure (in '76).

 

[Neil_F]

Surely the point of any Political party not in power is to offer an alternative to what we currently have.

Yes but there is a balance between ideological purity and winning. I'm not saying that principles should be abandoned to win but there is little point insisting on no compromise with the electorate if it means perpetual opposition.

I think any of Burnham, Cooper or Kendall could win but how would Corbyn win an general election? If he can't then what is the point of voting for him as leader?

 

[callan]

Yes but there is a balance between ideological purity and winning. I'm not saying that principles should be abandoned to win but there is little point insisting on no compromise with the electorate if it means perpetual opposition.

I think any of Burnham, Cooper or Kendall could win but how would Corbyn win an general election? If he can't then what is the point of voting for him as leader?

I don't know much about Corbyn to be honest, but I suspect he is the one of the four that is more identifiable with traditional Labour values....and therefore perhaps a genuine alternative?

I can only see the other three candidates offering a dumbed down version of conservatism, and if that's the case there's no point to a Labour victory as it's more of the same.

 

[Neil_F]

I don't know much about Corbyn to be honest, but I suspect he is the one of the four that is more identifiable with traditional Labour values....and therefore perhaps a genuine alternative?

I can only see the other three candidates offering a dumbed down version of conservatism, and if that's the case there's no point to a Labour victory as it's more of the same.

A genuine alternative that doesn't appeal to 90% of the electorate?

i don't think any other the other candidates can be described as advocating conservatism. I do think they suffer from a fear of committing to anything, but there are genuine differences on how public services are organised and delivered in particular.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

A genuine alternative that doesn't appeal to 90% of the electorate?

i don't think any other the other candidates can be described as advocating conservatism. I do think they suffer from a fear of committing to anything, but there are genuine differences on how public services are organised and delivered in particular.

I will point out the obvious - that 90% stat is 100% inaccurate.

other than that I'm surprised how the debate is going on here and who is driving it

 

[callan]

A genuine alternative that doesn't appeal to 90% of the electorate?

i don't think any other the other candidates can be described as advocating conservatism. I do think they suffer from a fear of committing to anything, but there are genuine differences on how public services are organised and delivered in particular.

Did the Tory lite version they were perceived to offer at the last election win them power?

Losing virtually all their support in Scotland, and underestimating the lure of UKIP in England.

I guess ultimately this comes down to whether Labour are capable of forging an identity that will resonate with the electorate, which may well be a return to their more traditional way of thinking, led by a man who won't compromise his values.

After all isn't one of the biggest complaints in modern politics..."that they are all the same".

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I doubt if there would be many "names" MPs that would serve in a shadow cabinet under JC. I think the thread could be re-named as "who will be the Labour Party leader for the next G.E?"

A lot of assumptions being made about what happens if / when Corbyn becomes leader and not much is based on more than guessing. If large parts of the party at member level and local party level back him and tens of thousands of people are joining the party at the point where they can vote him in, and a lost generation of voters are increasingly looking like being drawn in by his campaign - a fair few names may want to give it a whirl.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

So they won and what happened to the promise? more political spin and ideology than substance?

Yes,I remember asking Sydney Bidwell ( LondonTribune MP) that question at a Labour party meeting a couple of years later.

"Oh the war in the Middle East and the rise in petrol prices" was his answer.

I joined the CPGB shortly afterwards.

 

[Pubey]

treat yourself to a thrilling look back through the highs and lows of Barna's past...

I remember...
http://www.shrimperzone.com/vb/search.php?searchid=3629987

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

treat yourself to a thrilling look back through the highs and lows of Barna's past...

I remember...
http://www.shrimperzone.com/vb/search.php?searchid=3629987

Ha! Your link's bust.Does this mean I'm an "unperson?" :smile:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Perhaps the UK will follow what appears to be happening in the US, where precandidates that are eschewing the middle ground (Trump on the right, Sanders on the left) are thriving in the polls. I think there is a genuine desire for political outsiders to replace the cozy consensus that has ruled in both Washington and Westminstersidential . I would personally welcome a truly socialist Labour Party if it brought us a truly capitalist Conservative party with genuine conservative ideals.

Probably the first post of yours I've ever agreed with but I think you're onto something.:thumbsup:

 

[Neil_F]

I will point out the obvious - that 90% stat is 100% inaccurate.

I'm not sure a number can be 100% inaccurate.

Either way, I don't think I'm far off. About 15% of the electorate that turnout associate with the hard right (let's call it the UKIP vote, although it won't entirely correlate). It seems reasonable to assume that something similar applies to the hard left.

I understand the argument being run: that a radically alternative, hard left platform has appeal to a mass of disenfranchised voters who will turnout to vote for it whereas they would otherwise have stayed at home. I don't see any evidence for that.

I also understand the argument that the SNP were to the left of Labour at the election so Labour should move left but I don't agree with it. I don't think the SNP's politics matter much as long as they are seen as the party of Scotland. Their record has been trashed for nearly a year but it has no impact because the Scottish people see them as representing them irrespective of performance and policy. I don't see how Labour win even 10 seats in Scotland.

Either way the fundamental point is it is clear that Corbyn couldn't command the support of his MPs and would split his party. Perhaps that is desirable, I don't know, but it wouldn't facilitate electoral success or good government.

 

[callan]

I'm not sure a number can be 100% inaccurate.

Either way, I don't think I'm far off. About 15% of the electorate that turnout associate with the hard right (let's call it the UKIP vote, although it won't entirely correlate). It seems reasonable to assume that something similar applies to the hard left.

I understand the argument being run: that a radically alternative, hard left platform has appeal to a mass of disenfranchised voters who will turnout to vote for it whereas they would otherwise have stayed at home. I don't see any evidence for that.

I also understand the argument that the SNP were to the left of Labour at the election so Labour should move left but I don't agree with it. I don't think the SNP's politics matter much as long as they are seen as the party of Scotland. Their record has been trashed for nearly a year but it has no impact because the Scottish people see them as representing them irrespective of performance and policy. I don't see how Labour win even 10 seats in Scotland.

Either way the fundamental point is it is clear that Corbyn couldn't command the support of his MPs and would split his party. Perhaps that is desirable, I don't know, but it wouldn't facilitate electoral success or good government.

I think for too long Labour have swayed in the breeze of perceived popular opinion via the press, and personally I think it's good to see a bit of idealism coming back in.

Labour have for too long abandoned their traditional values that have served them well over their history, and rather than try and convince people that they are correct, they seem to have adopted a position of lets pretend to be something we are not.

For me that's what Corbyn appears to be about, someone who will fight on core Labour principles rather than adapt and change policies to suit.

It may well be that he does not garner support from present Labour MP's, we will have to wait and see.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

What, for me, are good points about this Leader election are ideas being promoted by JC and "the Left", the way that many are popular with many voters of all parties that are moderate; the idea of some re-nationalisation of areas such as rail track, energy, post office - i.e public essentials - that ought to be under public control and not for profit or foreign ownership.
It is inevitable that there will be some move towards these policies as they are seen as popular and also good house-keeping - in the main.

 

[Neil_F]

Labour have for too long abandoned their traditional values that have served them well over their history

If you don't consider Blair to be part of the "traditional" Labour movement then Labour haven't won an election since 1974, fully 41 years ago. I wouldn't say such an approach has, "served them well."

 

[callan]

If you don't consider Blair to be part of the "traditional" Labour movement then Labour haven't won an election since 1974, fully 41 years ago. I wouldn't say such an approach has, "served them well."

I am on unfamiliar ground now as I have to defend Labours record in government!

What I would say is that the post world war 2 Labour government that gave us the NHS, Social welfare + Justice , Universties opened up, was a lot closer to the core values of Labour, than the Blair / Brown years.

I also believe that the deficit was Larger post ww2 than what we currently have.

So yes give me a Labour party that is close to its core values every time.

 

[MK Shrimper]

So yes give me a Labour party that is close to its core values every time.

Amen......