Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

that is not even close to being true.

Yes, a lot of keyboard warriors have joined because of Corbyn, but in the 18 odd months since they joined I have barely met any. And I go canvassing a lot. And I'm elected to positions within the party.
The only time I've seen them do anything is when they've turned up to AGMs demanding to take over the elected positions and storming off when they haven't won.

The leg work is still done by the old crew who turn up rain or shine, Blair or Corbyn.
But I'm lucky, not everywhere else is as lucky as where I am in that regard

in that regard we can only say what we see and in Sutton and Croydon where I was canvassing there were a lot of new members out canvassing for Sadiq.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Ed Miliband was and is a decent bloke with a good heart and the kind of Labour politics that I believe in.
However, he was also a useless politician who was muddled in his thinking, indecisive and just odd. Remember One Nation Labour? We basically had a slogan and no one thought people might ask questions about what it meant.
Then remember that speech when he forgot to say anything at all about immigration or the deficit?
Kinda important things.
The guy was probably an alright guy, but if you honestly don't see that he was a crap politician then I'm not sure politics is for you. Did you never talk to anyone about him? Did you never think yourself that politicians need to prove that they are up to job in order to be given said job?
wanting things to be nicer is not enough

I have no quarrel with you and I addressed you politely and asked questions of your opinions rather than set traps like most questions on these threads are, so don't patronise me, it's not necessarily and does you a disservice.

 

[Bielzibubz]

There is insufficient evidence -so far-to test the veracity of that hypothesis.

That depends entirely on what you read and on who and what you decide to believe.

 

[Bearded Shrimper]

Which London CLP are you talking about?:unsure:

Lewisham Deptford

 

[Bearded Shrimper]

I have no quarrel with you and I addressed you politely and asked questions of your opinions rather than set traps like most questions on these threads are, so don't patronise me, it's not necessarily and does you a disservice.

sorry, it was meant as a rhetorical device rather than to be patronising but i see it came across like that. Apologies

 

[Bearded Shrimper]

in that regard we can only say what we see and in Sutton and Croydon where I was canvassing there were a lot of new members out canvassing for Sadiq.

fair enough, i wonder what caused that difference. As both our samples have proved unrepresentative it probably makes sense to wind in the generalisations from our own experiences a bit and qualify our assertions

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

fair enough, i wonder what caused that difference. As both our samples have proved unrepresentative it probably makes sense to wind in the generalisations from our own experiences a bit and qualify our assertions

I think people position themselves where they can make a difference. In Lewisham I suspect the attitude is that Labour will get in whatever so new people probably don't feel their involvement will be that effective.In Sutton Labour will be 3rd so I dip in but in Croydon where in 2015 Labour lost to the Tories by 155 votes you feel like your time is well spent and new members instantly feel valued. With the Mayoral campaign being pan London every vote counts so new members in Sutton would again feel the value in being active.


That's my guess.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Lewisham Deptford

My younger brother, (not RobNoxious the other one), used to live in Belmont Hill,Lewisham,though he always referred to it as Blackheath.

I stayed there for a bit in the mid-70's.Liked it.Can't say I feel the same about Deptford ,where a former girfriend of RN's lived.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

That depends entirely on what you read and on who and what you decide to believe.

Currently reading Ken Clark's political memoirs.I believe him (but then he's always been pro-Europe).

 

[Bielzibubz]

It's very interesting what Andrew Brigden had to say about KC, his fellow MP .... “It's disappointing that Ken Clarke, a great parliamentarian and someone who I thought believes in real democracy could possibly say such things.
”The support he has locally in Rushcliffe delivered the only convincing remain vote in the whole of the east Midlands and as an east Midlands MP he should take that really on board. There is no need for a parliamentary vote. We’ve all had a vote. I had a vote and Ken had a vote. And I am disappointed in those who think some people’s votes are worth more than others. Though I do have the have the highest respect for Ken Clarke, who has been a consistent Europhile and consistently wrong.”

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

It's very interesting what Andrew Brigden had to say about KC, his fellow MP .... “It's disappointing that Ken Clarke, a great parliamentarian and someone who I thought believes in real democracy could possibly say such things.
”The support he has locally in Rushcliffe delivered the only convincing remain vote in the whole of the east Midlands and as an east Midlands MP he should take that really on board. There is no need for a parliamentary vote. We’ve all had a vote. I had a vote and Ken had a vote. And I am disappointed in those who think some people’s votes are worth more than others. Though I do have the have the highest respect for Ken Clarke, who has been a consistent Europhile and consistently wrong.”

Ken Clarke has always been consistent on referenda.He made it quite clear (in his memoirs and elsewhere) that he didn't approve of the 1975 referendum (needless to say though that he was happy enough with the result).Interestingly,Thatcher wasn't much of a fan either.

There is a valid argument that in a parliamentary democracy our elected representatives should govern.Personally I've never believed in government by plebiscite.It smacks to me too much of 1930's Nazi Germany and Mussolini's fascist Italy.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Ken Clark has always been consistent on referenda.He made it quite clear (in his memoirs and elsewhere) that he didn't approve of the 1975 referendum (needless to say though that he was happy enough with the result).Interestingly,Thatcher wasn't much of a fan either.

There is a valid argument that in a parliamentary democracy our elected representatives should govern.Personally I've never believed in government by plebiscite.It smacks to me too much of 1930's Nazi Germany and Mussolini's fascist Italy.

So you don't believe in a government governing and abiding by the democratic outcome of a referendum (to use the more commonly used and understood term which you could have used) and so by default you believe them to be an unnecessary hindrance to the act of governing properly. At least that's how I've understood you there.

That's assuming I've understood what 'you're' definition of plebiscite is. There are two.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

So you don't believe in a government governing and abiding by the democratic outcome of a referendum (to use the more commonly used and understood term which you could have used) and so by default you believe them to be an unnecessary hindrance to the act of governing properly. At least that's how I've understood you there.

That's assuming I've understood what 'you're' definition of plebiscite is. There are two.

Actually,there's only one definition of a plebiscite.It's a "direct vote of the whole nation or of the people of a district on a special point" (Chambers).

Of course, I accept the vote in last year's referendum was for the UK to leave the EU.

However,the terms by which the UK would do so, were not presented to the British people in that referendum.That is precisely what the whole Brexit debate is about and will continue to be so for the next couple of years (at least).

 

[Bielzibubz]

Why would the terms be put to the public? The terms of leaving are far too complex to be put in a plebiscite and or referendum for the people to decide upon, as well you know. The government are there to enact the will of the people and we have to trust those we put there to do it correctly. The choice was simple and the outcome was clear. What isn't so simple is the way in which we reach the will of the majority but that's what the government of the day is there for.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Why would the terms be put to the public? The terms of leaving are far too complex to be put in a plebiscite and or referendum for the people to decide upon, as well you know. The government are there to enact the will of the people and we have to trust those we put there to do it correctly. The choice was simple and the outcome was clear. What isn't so simple is the way in which we reach the will of the majority but that's what the government of the day is there for.

And your quite correct. Although some suggest the exact opposite meaning of plebiscite. Certainly Wiki has a more up to date description of the meaning or suggested meaning

 

[MK Shrimper]

Why would the terms be put to the public? The terms of leaving are far too complex to be put in a plebiscite and or referendum for the people to decide upon, as well you know. The government are there to enact the will of the people and we have to trust those we put there to do it correctly. The choice was simple and the outcome was clear. What isn't so simple is the way in which we reach the will of the majority but that's what the government of the day is there for.

And your quite correct. Although some suggest the exact opposite meaning of plebiscite. Certainly Wiki has a more up to date description of the meaning or suggested meaning

That's us ****ed then, as May's government obviously haven't got a clue.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Why would the terms be put to the public? The terms of leaving are far too complex to be put in a plebiscite and or referendum for the people to decide upon, as well you know. The government are there to enact the will of the people and we have to trust those we put there to do it correctly. The choice was simple and the outcome was clear. What isn't so simple is the way in which we reach the will of the majority but that's what the government of the day is there for.

And your quite correct. Although some suggest the exact opposite meaning of plebiscite. Certainly Wiki has a more up to date description of the meaning or suggested meaning

Sorry but I don't trust Theresa Maybe to make the correct decision for the 48% who voted remain (and would presumably favour a soft Brexit ) along with the many leave voters who might well favour the same option.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Sorry but I don't trust Theresa Maybe to make the correct decision for the 48% who voted remain (and would presumably favour a soft Brexit ) along with the many leave voters who might well favour the same option.

Well, you and MK will just have to suck it up and accept it then because she's the one there steering the ship. Like it or not that's a hard fact you'll have to accept. And lets face it. YOU wouldn't trust anyone no matter who it was because it's not what YOU want.

You and you're brethren can carry on bleating on about this and that but the end result is the same. We are leaving the EU. Personally I'd prefer a hard Brexit but I'm perfectly willing to accept that that may not be how things pan out. Whichever way it's achieved I'm just thankful it's going to happen.

 

[Bielzibubz]

That's us ****ed then, as May's government obviously haven't got a clue.

That's just it though MK isn't it. Obvious to you because your blinkered in your opinion and will look for anything that fits that point of view. It's not obvious because she hasn't given a detailed breakdown of how negotiations will take place or what the priorities are. You just presume, nothing more.

 

[rigsby]

Sorry but I don't trust Theresa Maybe to make the correct decision for the 48% who voted remain (and would presumably favour a soft Brexit ) along with the many leave voters who might well favour the same option.

She doesn't have too. Its the 52% she has to think about. It would be like asking Wycombe what route we should take on our open top bus parade around Southend.