Hard or Soft Brexit?

[londonblue]

You're also failing to consider that those who voted so emphatically to Leave were the ONLYpeople in a position to compare life both IN and OUT of Europe. None of the demographic group you refer to were even born before we joined Europe, so how could they appreciate the difference?

Personally I don't consider that important. We've been members of the EU for around 40 years. The world has moved on plenty since then regardless of the EU.

Comparing "out" in the 1973 and "in" in 2017 is like comparing apples and pears. The only real comparison would be "out" in 2017 and "in" in 2017.

 

[southendkid]

You're also failing to consider that those who voted so emphatically to Leave were the ONLYpeople in a position to compare life both IN and OUT of Europe. None of the demographic group you refer to were even born before we joined Europe, so how could they appreciate the difference?

Your reference point to not being in the EU is too outdated to be relevant. The world is a very different place to when we weren't in the EU, and very little of that has anything to do with what they've done, technology has changed everything. Anyone expecting it to go back the good old days is going to be disappointed, the world will still largely look like it was when we were in the EU just with different trade agreements.

 

[superblue24]

IMO that's a poor argument because you could also say the same about the overall population that bothered to vote. If you actually look at the percentage of people that voted out, it was only 37.5% of the voting population, but (more importantly) just over 50% of the people that voted.

In my view you can't have it both ways. In both cases you have to only look at the actual people that did vote, and the younger population voted overwhelmingly to stay.

It is a poor argument, but suitable for the poor argument Barna made. I was only arguing in the context of his demographic point where he might as well say there was zero value in the older demographic votes on grounds that they are too old to deal with any potential fallout. I was making a justification on behalf of the older generation who I believe have had more experience in seeing UK both in and out of Europe. Ask most people over the age of 60, the ones I've spoken to believe that they were sold a bum deal in that referendum since they voted for the Common Market and not all the stuff that ended up being lumped in over the years.

I agree that things have changed a lot since the early 70s, but that doesn't necessarily mean it changed for the better. It is subjective to each person's point of view.

The other argument that Supernaut responded to was (as usual) Barna dressing up opinion as fact in saying there would be "mess" to clean up. We have no reason to believe (or not) that to be the case, it is all opinion based on what the media outlets want the public "sheep" to believe.

 

[londonblue]

It is a poor argument, but suitable for the poor argument Barna made. I was only arguing in the context of his demographic point where he might as well say there was zero value in the older demographic votes on grounds that they are too old to deal with any potential fallout. I was making a justification on behalf of the older generation who I believe have had more experience in seeing UK both in and out of Europe. Ask most people over the age of 60, the ones I've spoken to believe that they were sold a bum deal in that referendum since they voted for the Common Market and not all the stuff that ended up being lumped in over the years.

I agree that things have changed a lot since the early 70s, but that doesn't necessarily mean it changed for the better. It is subjective to each person's point of view.

The other argument that Supernaut responded to was (as usual) Barna dressing up opinion as fact in saying there would be "mess" to clean up. We have no reason to believe (or not) that to be the case, it is all opinion based on what the media outlets want the public "sheep" to believe.

I'm glad you agree it's a poor argument. Personally I wouldn't use a poor argument deliberately. However, as it happens I don't believe Barna's argument is poor. I do agree with you, however, about dressing up opinion as fact.

Whether or not things have changed for the better is a moot point. However, if people believe that things have changed for the worse then they seem to be blaming that on the EU, even though things would have changed regardless. The EU seems to have been used as a scapegoat by these types of people.

 

[superblue24]

However, as it happens I don't believe Barna's argument is poor.

Really? So you think this is a good point? Can you explain the merits?

"There's no question that older people voted overwhelmingly in favour of Leave whereas the vast majority of younger people (especially in the 18-24 age group) supported Remain.Ironically of course it'll be the young who'll have to sort out the mess their parents left them."

You think it's a fair point to essentially disregard the opinion of people who have been on the planet for 50 years or more in favour of people who have little to no life experience? Who makes the decisions in large corporates and businesses? the trainees or the directors? What is the average age of each respective position? We have to trust those with more experience, surely?

My point was in direct argument to Barnas, it was a worthwhile point in the context of his own deluded argument, but agreed it's not something I would have brought to the table on its own.

 

[Supernaut]

IMO that's a poor argument because you could also say the same about the overall population that bothered to vote. If you actually look at the percentage of people that voted out, it was only 37.5% of the voting population, but (more importantly) just over 50% of the people that voted.

In my view you can't have it both ways. In both cases you have to only look at the actual people that did vote, and the younger population voted overwhelmingly to stay.

I was being wilfully flippant. I enjoy being flippant towards TUIB on this subject as that's all his posts generally deserve.

 

[superblue24]

I'm glad you agree it's a poor argument.

Actually, I now see you weren't responding to my post at all.....

 

[callan]

One thing that hasn't been much talked about on here, (if at all), or elsewhere (much) for that matter, is the demographic aspect of Brexit.

There's no question that older people voted overwhelmingly in favour of Leave whereas the vast majority of younger people (especially in the 18-24 age group) supported Remain.Ironically of course it'll be the young who'll have to sort out the mess their parents left them.

It was ever thus.:cricko:

https://www.theguardian.com/society...s-in-the-uk-do-not-feel-european-demos-survey

Make of this what you will, but it would suggest that significantly there is a young demographic that is not engaged with Europe and my guess is that this is only half the story.

Was there a case that whilst opportunities in the EU were there for some, it was not for all....and with less experience of the evolution of the EEC/EU construct the young were ambivalent at best towards it ?

 

[onceknownasrab]

You're also failing to consider that those who voted so emphatically to Leave were the ONLYpeople in a position to compare life both IN and OUT of Europe. None of the demographic group you refer to were even born before we joined Europe, so how could they appreciate the difference?

Those old enough to know the difference, had they been told the truth in the first referendum, would have voted overwhelmingly not to join the common market in the first place. The only emphasis at the time was on trade. If it had been suggested that it was the beginnings of a European Superstate then the voters would have raised two digits in defiance.

As with all referendums it is down to the question asked and the information given. The general populace is never well informed, and instead, is bombarded by lies and statistics that would confuse Einstein. In the first referendum the government was confident of getting the consent to join the common market. In the second referendum the government was confident of a remain vote. The majority of people that voted, so supposedly important in a democracy, voted to leave and remainers are having a great deal of trouble understanding that now is the time to accept the decision of the people and move on together.

The media acted disgracefully too and fuelled the fire of division. Constantly they referred to certain areas that are die hard remainers and accompanied that by saying they are areas with a high level of graduates. It inferred that better educated people knew best. Since the referendum there has been a follow on attitude that almost implies that the Brexiteers are stupid and should be stripped of their victory. I would like to point out here, that the majority of decisions in Parliament and the ****-ups, are made by a majority of graduates. I have no idea why they would feel superior when I look around at the **** flowing throughout the world and can lay the cause at the doorstep of the political class.

Scotland and London were two standout regions that voted remain. Scotland is in the grip of the SNP. A one trick pony nationalist party that managed less than half the votes of UKIP and yet feels it has a bigger mandate. London is not representative of the UK. It is self serving and, for me, I would be more upset at losing Scotland from the UK than I would London.

 

[londonblue]

Really? So you think this is a good point? Can you explain the merits?

"There's no question that older people voted overwhelmingly in favour of Leave whereas the vast majority of younger people (especially in the 18-24 age group) supported Remain.Ironically of course it'll be the young who'll have to sort out the mess their parents left them."

You think it's a fair point to essentially disregard the opinion of people who have been on the planet for 50 years or more in favour of people who have little to no life experience? Who makes the decisions in large corporates and businesses? the trainees or the directors? What is the average age of each respective position? We have to trust those with more experience, surely?

My point was in direct argument to Barnas, it was a worthwhile point in the context of his own deluded argument, but agreed it's not something I would have brought to the table on its own.

That's not how I read it. I didn't read it as disregarding older voters. I read it as saying it's a shame the way it worked out, i.e. that the young would have to live with a decision with which they overwhelmingly disagreed.

 

[callan]

That's not how I read it. I didn't read it as disregarding older voters. I read it as saying it's a shame the way it worked out, i.e. that the young would have to live with a decision with which they overwhelmingly disagreed.

I think Barna is misguided in his irony, as a younger man he wanted no part of the EU/EEC yet as an older and presumably (in his view) wiser person he is in favour based on his experience....apply the logic of that towards leave voters.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

And what proportion of such aged demographic voted to Leave?

Presumably the 30% who didn't vote Remain.QED.

Those old enough to know the difference, had they been told the truth in the first referendum, would have voted overwhelmingly not to join the common market in the first place. The only emphasis at the time was on trade. If it had been suggested that it was the beginnings of a European Superstate then the voters would have raised two digits in defiance.

As with all referendums it is down to the question asked and the information given. The general populace is never well informed, and instead, is bombarded by lies and statistics that would confuse Einstein. In the first referendum the government was confident of getting the consent to join the common market. In the second referendum the government was confident of a remain vote. The majority of people that voted, so supposedly important in a democracy, voted to leave and remainers are having a great deal of trouble understanding that now is the time to accept the decision of the people and move on together.

The media acted disgracefully too and fuelled the fire of division. Constantly they referred to certain areas that are die hard remainers and accompanied that by saying they are areas with a high level of graduates. It inferred that better educated people knew best. Since the referendum there has been a follow on attitude that almost implies that the Brexiteers are stupid and should be stripped of their victory. I would like to point out here, that the majority of decisions in Parliament and the ****-ups, are made by a majority of graduates. I have no idea why they would feel superior when I look around at the **** flowing throughout the world and can lay the cause at the doorstep of the political class.

Scotland and London were two standout regions that voted remain. Scotland is in the grip of the SNP. A one trick pony nationalist party that managed less than half the votes of UKIP and yet feels it has a bigger mandate. London is not representative of the UK. It is self serving and, for me, I would be more upset at losing Scotland from the UK than I would London.

A (narrow)majority in Northern Ireland aso voted in favour of Remain.I'm sure they'd be diasappointed to learn that you don't consider them to be a "standout region" of the UK.

I think Barna is misguided in his irony, as a younger man he wanted no part of the EU/EEC yet as an older and presumably (in his view) wiser person he is in favour based on his experience....apply the logic of that towards leave voters.

It's true I voted in favour of the UK not joining the EEC in the 1975 referendum.Otherwise I'm not really sure what point you're making here.Care to spell it out?

 

[callan]

It's true I voted in favour of the UK not joining the EEC in the 1975 referendum.Otherwise I'm not really sure what point you're making here.Care to spell it out?

I'd be delighted to.

The point is that you were young, educated and probably fitting into much the same demographic as the one you cite.

The only difference between yourself now and then is age and experience.

So which Barna was right about the EU/EEC?

You now favour the EU, allowing the experience you have trump your earlier view as a younger man which was not to join.

So when you contend that it is an older leave vote ruining it for the young, you would do well to consider that (as in your own case) is where the experience lies.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I'd be delighted to.

The point is that you were young, educated and probably fitting into much the same demographic as the one you cite.

The only difference between yourself now and then is age and experience.

So which Barna was right about the EU/EEC?

You now favour the EU, allowing the experience you have trump your earlier view as a younger man which was not to join.

So when you contend that it is an older leave vote ruining it for the young, you would do well to consider that (as in your own case) is where the experience lies.

The nation voted about 2:1 in favour of the EEC back in 1975.This time round the split was 52% in favour of leave:48% in favour of remain.That's the main difference that I see.

It is also a fact that younger people voted remain while older people voted to leave."Inconvenient truths" indeed.

 

[superblue24]

It is also a fact that younger people voted remain while older people voted to leave."Inconvenient truths" indeed.

Explain to me what "younger people" know about what is best for the country again? What exactly makes them better positioned to decide on the fate of our country?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Explain to me what "younger people" know about what is best for the country again? What exactly makes them better positioned to decide on the fate of our country?

Don't think I've ever said anything like "younger people know about what is best for the country." It's fair to say though,IMO, that they'll be the ones dealing with the consequences of Brexit, ie picking up the pieces.

 

[callan]

The nation voted about 2:1 in favour of the EEC back in 1975.This time round the split was 52% in favour of leave:48% in favour of remain.That's the main difference that I see.

It is also a fact that younger people voted remain while older people voted to leave."Inconvenient truths" indeed.

I don't suppose you intended to point out the significant swing based on the 75 result compared with last years...in favour of leave :thumbsup:

As you point out the fact is.... that those with experience of the EEC / EU over a longer period of time chose to reject it, whilst your younger demographic who have little or no experience wanted to stay in.

I don't think anyone is arguing about which way the demographics voted, but as you say there are 'inconvenient truths' one of which is that the demographic you point out is likely to be most affected simply didn't bother to vote in enough numbers to overturn what is... in terms of total votes cast a comparatively low Margin....perhaps like your good self they were happy to trust in the innate good wisdom of the UK electorate:smile:

 

[superblue24]

Don't think I've ever said anything like "younger people know about what is best for the country." It's fair to say though,IMO, that they'll be the ones dealing with the consequences of Brexit, ie picking up the pieces.

Or, of course, reaping the benefits (IMO).

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I don't suppose you intended to point out the significant swing based on the 75 result compared with last years...in favour of leave :thumbsup:

As you point out the fact is.... that those with experience of the EEC / EU over a longer period of time chose to reject it, whilst your younger demographic who have little or no experience wanted to stay in.

I don't think anyone is arguing about which way the demographics voted, but as you say there are 'inconvenient truths' one of which is that the demographic you point out is likely to be most affected simply didn't bother to vote in enough numbers to overturn what is... in terms of total votes cast a comparatively low Margin....perhaps like your good self they were happy to trust in the innate good wisdom of the UK electorate:smile:

I would "perhaps" have been a lot happier about trusting "the innate good wisdom of the UK electorate", if I'd had the chance myself to vote this time around, (as promised in the Tory 2015 manifesto).

 

[callan]

I would "perhaps" have been a lot happier about trusting "the innate good wisdom of the UK electorate", if I'd had the chance myself to vote this time around, (as promised in the Tory 2015 manifesto).

Indeed, still you can always content yourself that you have a 100 per cent record of voting against the EU/EEC eh Barna?:happy: