Hard or Soft Brexit?

[londonblue]

Absolutely this. I think the Remain vote was lost due to so many UK citizens feeling that the status quo wasn't good for them, hadn't been for many years, and that they simply had nothing to lose by voting for a different path. It was Cameron's job to convince those people that their future was brighter with the UK staying in the EU and he failed. Miserably. You cannot blame those people for voting Leave. Love or loathe Farage, you have to acknowledge that he reached out to those people and he nailed his personal campaign in a way that Cameron could only dream of.

Not just Camerscum. There were plenty of others that failed too. I do recall one leader saying he was 70% for the EU. Now that's a ringing endorsement if ever I've heard one.

 

[callan]

Not just Camerscum. There were plenty of others that failed too. I do recall one leader saying he was 70% for the EU. Now that's a ringing endorsement if ever I've heard one.

What did you make of Corbyns performance on TV last night?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I've done nothing of the sort. All along from day one, I've openly said my ramblings on here are my opinion and beliefs. Nothing more.

And what's the point in revisiting this in two years time? Your political beliefs and mine are poles apart so determining whether it's been at great cost or not to the UK is meaningless as my idea of that cost is going to be widely different to yours and that will inevitably spark another round of spats, point scoring and arguments. Still, brightens up an otherwise dull morning I suppose.

Unlike you, I don't profess to know the future. You clearly do by stating that we WILL pay a high price. No if's, no buts, we WILL. Your words, not mine. My belief and opinion is that we won't.

I've picked you up on this before a few times as it's great point scoring but you still don't seem to have learned the lesson.

There is no lesson to learn.
It's obvious that we will not achieve a better deal outside the EU than we did inside.That's not how clubs work, especially not the EU club.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

What did you make of Corbyns performance on TV last night?

Richard Madeley (from 'and Judy') said it was a 'confident, calm and measured performance'. The guy who played Roland in Grange Hill has been less supportive recently but last nights Andrew O'Neil performance may win him over.

I haven't made either of these things up.

 

[callan]

There is no lesson to learn.
It's obvious that we will not achieve a better deal outside the EU than we did inside.That's not how clubs work, especially not the EU club.

When you say better deal....do you mean with the EU, countries the EU have trade agreements with, or those countries that the EU have failed to reach agreements with or all?

 

[Bielzibubz]

There is no lesson to learn.
It's obvious that we will not achieve a better deal outside the EU than we did inside.That's not how clubs work, especially not the EU club.

There you go again. You just don't get it, do you? It's not obvious we'll be worse off. In your blinkered and myopic political world yes. In the real world, no one knows. Not one person knows how this will pan out. I know how I think it will but I, just like you, don't know for sure.

And it's not about the EU deal as such. Perhaps the end deal struck with the EU will be a poorer version of the one we've left behind but as far as the UK from then on being a worldwide trading nation is concerned the downside of the eventual EU trade deal will be more than offset by our ability to trade with countries that we've previously been barred from doing so. Again, we, you and I, don't know and we'll just have to wait and see.

I have no problem whatsoever with people having completely opposing political ideals and beliefs me. It's great for debate. What I do have a problem with is people trying to pass off their beliefs and opinions as fact and talking down to others with condescending remarks. Yes, I'm guilty on that score but to be fair it's only towards you :D

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

When you say better deal....do you mean with the EU, countries the EU have trade agreements with, or those countries that the EU have failed to reach agreements with or all?

The 27 countries remaining in the EU.This will give us a taste of what's to come.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39451048

 

[callan]

Richard Madeley (from 'and Judy') said it was a 'confident, calm and measured performance'. The guy who played Roland in Grange Hill has been less supportive recently but last nights Andrew O'Neil performance may win him over.

I haven't made either of these things up.

My own take is that it was a fairly decent interview he gave, I know that London blue is not a fan so wondered what his thoughts were on it.

 

[londonblue]

What did you make of Corbyns performance on TV last night?

I can't watch much TV at the moment. We're 2 months into a 5 month building job downstairs. (Yes, we really are living just upstairs at the moment.) The cables from the sky dish and aerial are currently on the flat roof at the back of the house. I only plug them back into the sky box at weekends because it's too much hassle for a few hours every evening. We can therefore only watch TV via the internet, and (again because of the work) our speed is very slow. When my wife is catching up with East-****ing-enders every night anything else isn't worth the effort.

 

[callan]

The 27 countries remaining in the EU.This will give us a taste of what's to come.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39451048

Not sure what your link tells us that hasn't already been reported.

My guess from your posts is that you are fairly desperate for the UK to have a poor deal as that would be in line with what is a reasonably narrow insight.

The deal we had with the EU, required us to pay more and more for something that delivered less year on year in terms of trade and of course whilst having no interest in political integration with them.

58 per cent of our trade is now outside of the EU, and this has been growing year on year at no cost whatsoever, with a significant proportion on WTO terms.

Going forward we will have the ability to secure our own trade deals, unencumbered by 27 states and their internal regions, at speeds that the EU can only dream of.

The guy you describe as the 'Great Leader' (Corbyn for those who don't recognise him as Great!), tells us that there is opportunity outside the EU, whilst not recognizing their fanciful notion of a 60 Bn bill....you may want to correct him on this by sending some of your guardian links.:winking:

 

[superblue24]

The 27 countries remaining in the EU.This will give us a taste of what's to come.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39451048

To balance things a bit, the link here suggests that only the media are making it into a "war of words" and that the people actually involved want constructive meetings

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39453338

 

[Sandbach Shrimper]

Ex leader of the Young Conservatives, then political editor for the BBC, Nick Robinson:

'Now clear why Boris kept off air this week. Leave's promises to get back £350m, to slash immigration, to have cake and eat it - all binned'

So this Tory journalist seems to think they were genuine 'offers' in the campaign, but not now.

I'm fed up of hearing this myth about the £350m and being patronised by Remoaners telling me why I voted leave. If you examine the words of the slogan it was never a promise, it was an example of what we could spend the money that we send to the EU on. The people who came up with that slogan weren't and aren't in government and don't decide on the NHS's funding. The £350m figure was widely discredited during the campaign and I doubt many people voted leave because they genuinely thought the NHS was going to get an extra £350m a week. I do think Vote Leave put too much emphasis on it but I don't think it was a big factor in the result.

 

[superblue24]

I'm fed up of hearing this myth about the £350m and being patronised by Remoaners telling me why I voted leave. If you examine the words of the slogan it was never a promise, it was an example of what we could spend the money that we send to the EU on. The people who came up with that slogan weren't and aren't in government and don't decide on the NHS's funding. The £350m figure was widely discredited during the campaign and I doubt many people voted leave because they genuinely thought the NHS was going to get an extra £350m a week. I do think Vote Leave put too much emphasis on it but I don't think it was a big factor in the result.

Indeed, but I'm bored arguing the point.

To me it seemed like a "look at what we could do with these extra funds, we could put the cash into the NHS (for example)"

Even if it were true, what about our schools? Police? roads? Fire and Rescue? Defense? Why on earth would we pour the entirety of the savings into the NHS?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I'm fed up of hearing this myth about the £350m and being patronised by Remoaners telling me why I voted leave. If you examine the words of the slogan it was never a promise, it was an example of what we could spend the money that we send to the EU on. The people who came up with that slogan weren't and aren't in government and don't decide on the NHS's funding. The £350m figure was widely discredited during the campaign and I doubt many people voted leave because they genuinely thought the NHS was going to get an extra £350m a week. I do think Vote Leave put too much emphasis on it but I don't think it was a big factor in the result.

If you want to let him know of your displeasure you can email him at nick.robinson01@bbc.co.uk

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I'm fed up of hearing this myth about the £350m and being patronised by Remoaners telling me why I voted leave. If you examine the words of the slogan it was never a promise, it was an example of what we could spend the money that we send to the EU on. The people who came up with that slogan weren't and aren't in government and don't decide on the NHS's funding. The £350m figure was widely discredited during the campaign and I doubt many people voted leave because they genuinely thought the NHS was going to get an extra £350m a week. I do think Vote Leave put too much emphasis on it but I don't think it was a big factor in the result.

This one in particular is very specific.
This is the issue, you will be trying to justify this for ever, we will never know how many people were swayed by it, but we can clearly see it was a blatant lie.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Indeed, but I'm bored arguing the point.

To me it seemed like a "look at what we could do with these extra funds, we could put the cash into the NHS (for example)"

Even if it were true, what about our schools? Police? roads? Fire and Rescue? Defense? Why on earth would we pour the entirety of the savings into the NHS?

The figure is a lie though, we don't give the EU £350m a week as there is a rebate applied before we pay the money over. The lie is in two parts, the first part is the made up value of £350m.

 

[Supernaut]

View attachment 4647

This one in particular is very specific.
This is the issue, you will be trying to justify this for ever, we will never know how many people were swayed by it, but we can clearly see it was a blatant lie.

All the Remain campaign had to do was expose the blatant lie whilst pointing out that those making the NHS promise wouldn't have the power to divert even a single pound of EU money to the NHS instead should the Leave vote win. I'll never get over how spectacularly the Remain campaign failed to do their job...

 

[londonblue]

All the Remain campaign had to do was expose the blatant lie whilst pointing out that those making the NHS promise wouldn't have the power to divert even a single pound of EU money to the NHS instead should the Leave vote win. I'll never get over how spectacularly the Remain campaign failed to do their job...

They did. The fact that you don't remember that is telling. Simply put, for some odd reason, people didn't listen. If that is because it was a protest vote (i.e. things are pretty **** at the moment, so anything will be better) then so bit it. To a certain extent I don't blame people for that. My argument, however, is twofold. Firstly the EU wasn't to blame for that and they have possibly used the EU as a scapegoat. Secondly, this is a "fix" to a short term issue that has extremely long term consequences.

That said, we are where we are. There's nothing we can do about so we have to make the best of it. In my view making the best of it will still be less good than we currently have it, so we have to get as close as possible. Can May etc do that? Probably not, but one thing is for sure, she'll do a better (less bad) job of it than the car crash that is Corduroy. I would say we can count our lucky stars that he's not in charge, but actually it's not down to luck at all!

The problem with the remain campaign (apart from the fact that it was also a car crash) is that the arguments for staying are harder to put forward. It's easy to think that what we have now is crap, and anything will be better. But arguing that change will make things worse will always come over as negative. Moreover, the leave campaign was able to focus on individual points, without having to make the argument that leaving can't be all things to all people because everything is so interdependent. Not only that, when you've had years of media lies around around the EU it is difficult to persuade people that actually they are just that: lies.

That, along with the sheer number of lies made during the campaign (and yes I accept they were on both sides) meant that it became almost impossible to know what was true and what wasn't.

Using this NHS thing as an example, you may well not have been persuaded by it, but you can't honestly say people weren't. Every little lie like that will have caught some people out. Each one taken in isolation wouldn't make a big difference to the overall vote, but given how close the vote actually was, taken as a whole they probably tipped the balance.

 

[superblue24]

The figure is a lie though, we don't give the EU £350m a week as there is a rebate applied before we pay the money over. The lie is in two parts, the first part is the made up value of £350m.

I think the actual figure is around 250 million, not 350. Still a lot of money though.

 

[rigsby]

I have never yet met anyone who voted out because of the money to the NHS. Brexiters had made their minds up long before any campaign. In fact that's the last place I would want it to go but that's for another thread.

Since the vote if anything its more Remainers who realised they were lied to. Not just the punishment budget, WW3, or the financial meltdown but many other small things. Like the young band members I know who thought as from the 24th June they would need a visa for every different EU country.