Hard or Soft Brexit?

[Bielzibubz]

Theresa May has said she can't guarantee security cooperation with the EU without a trade deal.


Has she forgotten about the terrorist attack outside of Parliament already?


Is she genuinely threatening to withhold information that will save lives?


In case there was any doubt that her words were misrepresented (my initial thought and hope) Amber Rudd then backed up this position saying 'we would take our (security) information with us'.


This is what we have representing us.

Oh come on ***. Surely you're not that nieve that you can't see this for what it is are you? It's political posturing and saber rattling. Nothing more. Do you honestly think any democratically elected government in power would withhold critical international security information from another country because it didn't get it all its own way in a trade deal?

There are going to be many comments like this from both sides in the coming months. As with all divorce settlements and negotiations, statements are made that both sides know have absolutely no possibility of actually happening but they are made none the less.

From day one die-hard europhiles in Brussels have made numerous threats about what will happen to the UK both pre and post triggering day yesterday. None of which have come to fruition. It's politics. Treat it as such.

 

[londonblue]

On a slightly different note, I was queuing up outside my son's school yesterday for his school play. I was amazed at the number of people in the queue that were about to apply for Irish passports.

Behind me, there was one person who is Irish. She is getting her kids Irish passports. Her husband, however can't get one! Then there was the other family in front of me. The mother has an Irish mother, so she is getting herself and her kids passports. Again, her husband will be missing out.

Further up the line there was another family. That made about 15-20 people in a queue of about 45!

 

[rigsby]

On a slightly different note, I was queuing up outside my son's school yesterday for his school play. I was amazed at the number of people in the queue that were about to apply for Irish passports.

Behind me, there was one person who is Irish. She is getting her kids Irish passports. Her husband, however can't get one! Then there was the other family in front of me who. The mother has an Irish mother, so she is getting herself and her kids passports. Again, her husband will be missing out.

Further up the line there was another family. That made about 15-20 people in a queue of about 45!

Does your son go to the Irish Embassy School ?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Oh come on ***. Surely you're not that nieve that you can't see this for what it is are you? It's political posturing and saber rattling. Nothing more. Do you honestly think any democratically elected government in power would withhold critical international security information from another country because it didn't get it all its own way in a trade deal?

There are going to be many comments like this from both sides in the coming months. As with all divorce settlements and negotiations, statements are made that both sides know have absolutely no possibility of actually happening but they are made none the less.

From day one die-hard europhiles in Brussels have made numerous threats about what will happen to the UK both pre and post triggering day yesterday. None of which have come to fruition. It's politics. Treat it as such.

if we assume that everything that is said is not true then there is no point in political debate at all, this thread should in that case not exist as only the signed document in two years time is worth commenting on

 

[GBJ]

totally agree there were thousands of reasons to vote one way or the other but it's so disappointing that such a crucial moment in our history is tarnished with so many lies and false information

Fair comment, and one I agree with, to a degree.

That being said, I can't/won't detract from the idea that such a crucial moment, as you rightfully describe it, could have been avoided altogether, if sensible, rational & logical debate was allowed to bloom, 10 years ago. Instead we had:

- Any/All mentioning of immigrants/immigration/integration 10 years ago, you were deemed racist & xenophobic, by many.

- In the build up to June 23rd, a vote for Brexit, was suspected of being laced with racial prejudice, by many.

- on June 24th (and since) there were many people who simply deduced that Britain was racist.

It's that attitude, which stunted the rational, logical debate. It's that attitude which bore a feeling of belittlement.

And I get that there would have been plenty of Racists, chomping at the bit for Brexit, but to tar everyone with that brush, was the remain campaigns biggest downfall. Well, that, and of course wheeling out the Warmongerer & asking us to trust his judgement

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You think the UK will pay a high price. It's your opinion nothing more. Please stop being do arrogant and passing your opinions off as fact. Thanks

Come back at me in two years time and see if I'm wrong or not.

Until then stop passing your own biased opinions off as "fact".Touché.

 

[Bielzibubz]

if we assume that everything that is said is not true then there is no point in political debate at all, this thread should in that case not exist as only the signed document in two years time is worth commenting on

Just a little common sense *** that's all. I maintain that if you think will be the case then you are indeed being nieve. Posturing, threats, unkept promises, outright lies. These are all to be expected in the coming months. As to your last point. Maybe. Everything between now and then is pure conjecture and opinion on our part.

You can either accept everything you hear and read from our dear politicians or you can treat everything they say with skepticism and that everything they do probably has an ulterior motive.

I know which option I prefer.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Come back at me in two years time and see if I'm wrong or not.

Until then stop passing your own biased opinions off as "fact".Touché.

I've done nothing of the sort. All along from day one, I've openly said my ramblings on here are my opinion and beliefs. Nothing more.

And what's the point in revisiting this in two years time? Your political beliefs and mine are poles apart so determining whether it's been at great cost or not to the UK is meaningless as my idea of that cost is going to be widely different to yours and that will inevitably spark another round of spats, point scoring and arguments. Still, brightens up an otherwise dull morning I suppose.

Unlike you, I don't profess to know the future. You clearly do by stating that we WILL pay a high price. No if's, no buts, we WILL. Your words, not mine. My belief and opinion is that we won't.

I've picked you up on this before a few times as it's great point scoring but you still don't seem to have learned the lesson.

 

[Gt Yarmouth Shrimper]

Fair comment, and one I agree with, to a degree.

That being said, I can't/won't detract from the idea that such a crucial moment, as you rightfully describe it, could have been avoided altogether, if sensible, rational & logical debate was allowed to bloom, 10 years ago.

As someone who voted to remain, I agree with this completely but IMO, any rational debate was drowned out by the hijacking of the leave campaign by blatant and deliberate lies .

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Just a little common sense *** that's all. I maintain that if you think will be the case then you are indeed being nieve. Posturing, threats, unkept promises, outright lies. These are all to be expected in the coming months. As to your last point. Maybe. Everything between now and then is pure conjecture and opinion on our part.

You can either accept everything you hear and read from our dear politicians or you can treat everything they say with skepticism and that everything they do probably has an ulterior motive.

I know which option I prefer.

I expect politicians to tell the truth, when they don't I make a point of highlighting it. Though it happens so often that I am only picking the lies that particularly irk me to bother to speak up.

 

[MK Shrimper]

I expect politicians to tell the truth, when they don't I make a point of highlighting it. Though it happens so often that I am only picking the lies that particularly irk me to bother to speak up.

You can easily tell when a politician is lying because their lips are moving.

(C) Frank Underwood.

 

[GBJ]

As someone who voted to remain, I agree with this completely but IMO, any rational debate was drowned out by the hijacking of the leave campaign by blatant and deliberate lies .

Its debateable how genuine some of the leave campaign was, granted. But if the remain campaign had been a capable outfit, they could have razed any & every opposition arguement to the ground. What exactly did the remain campaign do to counter the "lies?"

To many people, myself included, it was obvious that the remain mob, were clueless & were relying solely on instilling fear, instead of convincing people that they were the people to be believed. A lot of people who voted leave, were working class people, who had put up with & continue to live through strain & struggle, under these chumps watch, for years. So why would they put faith/trust in them?

And when the remain mob finally found a figure that was ment to be trustworthy, it turned out to be Blair :hilarious:

In regard to both Brexit campaigns, I think it's fair to say that criticism can be levied at both sides. Truthfully, it should never have come to this. But that is the power of the people. If you don't truly listen to people's problems, then an uprising is inevitable.

 

[londonblue]

Its debateable how genuine some of the leave campaign was, granted. But if the remain campaign had been a capable outfit, they could have razed any & every opposition arguement to the ground. What exactly did the remain campaign do to counter the "lies?"

To many people, myself included, it was obvious that the remain mob, were clueless & were relying solely on instilling fear, instead of convincing people that they were the people to be believed. A lot of people who voted leave, were working class people, who had put up with & continue to live through strain & struggle, under these chumps watch, for years. So why would they put faith/trust in them?

And when the remain mob finally found a figure that was ment to be trustworthy, it turned out to be Blair :hilarious:

In regard to both Brexit campaigns, I think it's fair to say that criticism can be levied at both sides. Truthfully, it should never have come to this. But that is the power of the people. If you don't truly listen to people's problems, then an uprising is inevitable.

Are you therefore saying that people voted leave to give the "ruling class" a bloody nose?

 

[Ricky Otto]

You can easily tell when a politician is lying because their lips are moving.

(C) Frank Underwood.

I'd like to suggest Stephen Hawking as our next prime minister

 

[Bielzibubz]

Then I think you expect to much sir. Yes they all start out with upstanding morals and principles but very very few of them carry them with them as they rise through the the corridors of power, JC being an exception, but look where that's getting him and his party.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Are you therefore saying that people voted leave to give the "ruling class" a bloody nose?

A great many must have done.

 

[GBJ]

Are you therefore saying that people voted leave to give the "ruling class" a bloody nose?

No, I'm saying that the issue of immigration had been bubbling up for the last decade, but it was brushed aside & belittled by the vast majority. That, coupled with an ever increasing poorer quality of life, caused an unrest which snowballed out of control.

The people campaigning for remain, had simply lost the trust of those people. And who could blame them? Would you trust Tony Blair? Would you trust Cameron, after he said The UK would be fine out of the EU?

There's a difference between revenge & losing trust

 

[Supernaut]

That, coupled with an ever increasing poorer quality of life, caused an unrest which snowballed out of control.

Absolutely this. I think the Remain vote was lost due to so many UK citizens feeling that the status quo wasn't good for them, hadn't been for many years, and that they simply had nothing to lose by voting for a different path. It was Cameron's job to convince those people that their future was brighter with the UK staying in the EU and he failed. Miserably. You cannot blame those people for voting Leave. Love or loathe Farage, you have to acknowledge that he reached out to those people and he nailed his personal campaign in a way that Cameron could only dream of.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Ex leader of the Young Conservatives, then political editor for the BBC, Nick Robinson:

'Now clear why Boris kept off air this week. Leave's promises to get back £350m, to slash immigration, to have cake and eat it - all binned'

So this Tory journalist seems to think they were genuine 'offers' in the campaign, but not now.

 

[callan]

Theresa May has said she can't guarantee security cooperation with the EU without a trade deal.


Has she forgotten about the terrorist attack outside of Parliament already?


Is she genuinely threatening to withhold information that will save lives?


In case there was any doubt that her words were misrepresented (my initial thought and hope) Amber Rudd then backed up this position saying 'we would take our (security) information with us'.


This is what we have representing us.

Haven't had time to read up a lot on this...and am not overly familiar with the EU'S defence and security arrangements.

What is known though is that very few EU members meet their financial commitment of 2% of GDP towards Nato which the UK do year in and year out.

Security to me goes further than just sharing info on terrorism...I imagine we help police borders and waters, and other EU security initiatives.
Throwing it out there, and I completely agree that we should co-operate with them in areas that are in our own national interest, but when they are not?