Hard or Soft Brexit?

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Well old life's a bowl cherries yogi, your not doing a good job of selling your failing EU dream to me. Us positive Brexitier's are looking forward to the future We have years entertainment ahead as the EU collapses and the world queues up to deal with the only safe country left in Europe to do business with....Great Britain.

By the way hope your not still scared of the wardrobe monster.....He doesn't really exist.

Wasn't aware I was selling you any dream? Think the outlook for the EU is far from brilliant, especially with one of the main members on the point of leaving. However, with friends like you, who are so short-sighted they can't even see that an EU collapse would be harmful to British interests, who needs enemies? By the way have Amazon delivered your "make Britain Great again" cap yet (what colour did you choose?) Anyway, as they say, one person's dream is another person's nightmare..........you'll no doubt find out when you eventually wake up. However, as I stated above, I'm becoming more confident that nice Mr Bannon will sort out ALL our problems...........even the Greek ones.

 

[rigsby]

Theresa May made that mistake once a few months ago. Northern Ireland were very miffed and she makes great pains now and rightly so to say Great Britain and Northern Ireland stressing the Northern Ireland.

That little add on is just to please the usual suspects. The majority of the NI population has always wanted to remain part of the UK, including many Catholics.

 

[C'mon you Shrimpers]

That little add on is just to please the usual suspects. The majority of the NI population has always wanted to remain part of the UK, including many Catholics.

I think you miss the point entirely. This is not what this is about. The UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Leaving the Northern Ireland bit off upset them. Great Britain is England (including Wales) and Scotland.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

BREXIT MAY MEAN BREXIT BUT DOES BREXIT + TRUMP MEAN A WHOLE NEW BALL GAME? This quote, from the Guardian article below gives notice of how the world is rapidly changing and it is likely not to resemble the one which existed when the UK voted in June last year.

"President Trump, animated by private motives as yet undisclosed, wants to bring about a Russian-American axis that would enfeeble Nato, destroy the European Union and dominate a continent reduced to politically dysfunctional national fragments."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/09/brexit-trump-britain-national-security-article-50

In addition to the above I've just posted an article on the French Presidential thread, which describes how France and possibly Europe may change in the future, if there's a Macron victory.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...anishingly-small-fall-in-net-migration-report

Thought this was interesting.A new thinktank predicts only a 15% fall in immigration after Brexit.Even this fall could be wiped out after trade deals with non-EU countries.

 

[callan]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...anishingly-small-fall-in-net-migration-report

Thought this was interesting.A new thinktank predicts only a 15% fall in immigration after Brexit.Even this fall could be wiped out after trade deals with non-EU countries.

That's quite an impressive endorsement of Brexit if we still need that amount of immigration after we leave.
Perhaps freedom of movement in the new era will be not of people but of workers.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

That's quite an impressive endorsement of Brexit if we still need that amount of immigration after we leave.
Perhaps freedom of movement in the new era will be not of people but of workers.

I would suggest it mainly works that way,atm.Most people seem to have a job to take up or have a reasonable expectation of doing so.

 

[Bielzibubz]

BREXIT MAY MEAN BREXIT BUT DOES BREXIT + TRUMP MEAN A WHOLE NEW BALL GAME? This quote, from the Guardian article below gives notice of how the world is rapidly changing and it is likely not to resemble the one which existed when the UK voted in June last year.

"President Trump, animated by private motives as yet undisclosed, wants to bring about a Russian-American axis that would enfeeble Nato, destroy the European Union and dominate a continent reduced to politically dysfunctional national fragments."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/09/brexit-trump-britain-national-security-article-50

In addition to the above I've just posted an article on the French Presidential thread, which describes how France and possibly Europe may change in the future, if there's a Macron victory.

Whatever is written there (I have no idea as I haven't clicked any links) if what you say is true it would take a damn sight longer than the 4 years of Trumps term of office to even remotely put in to practice (he won't get a second if his first few weeks are anything to go by)

Scare story, nothing more. He's been reigned in by the US courts already with regard to his immigration EO and I believe his Supreme Court appeal will go the same way. And that's nothing compared to what's coming his way on the horizon. Just dig a little deeper and find unbiased and non-politically motivated information, it's out there, and you'll understand what I mean.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Whatever is written there (I have no idea as I haven't clicked any links) if what you say is true it would take a damn sight longer than the 4 years of Trumps term of office to even remotely put in to practice (he won't get a second if his first few weeks are anything to go by)

Scare story, nothing more. He's been reigned in by the US courts already with regard to his immigration EO and I believe his Supreme Court appeal will go the same way. And that's nothing compared to what's coming his way on the horizon. Just dig a little deeper and find unbiased and non-politically motivated information, it's out there, and you'll understand what I mean.

Billy Bragg was making the same 'the world now is not the same as the world of 23rd June' point on QT last night.
Your point that Trump won't be around in 4 years I think is very valid, and many people think his administration will implode within a few months. The danger for us in that scenario is that if we have aligned ourselves closely with him and he is no longer involved in politics is that we then have a new void if the Special Relationship that many are expecting to fill EU gap.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...anishingly-small-fall-in-net-migration-report

Thought this was interesting.A new thinktank predicts only a 15% fall in immigration after Brexit.Even this fall could be wiped out after trade deals with non-EU countries.

its been reported that both India and Australia were looking for freedom of movement to be tied in with trade deals and in that scenario we would be going through a lot of financial hardship and uncertainty to just replace one set of countries with another in many of the factors people voted to be rid of.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Billy Bragg was making the same 'the world now is not the same as the world of 23rd June' point on QT last night.
Your point that Trump won't be around in 4 years I think is very valid, and many people think his administration will implode within a few months. The danger for us in that scenario is that if we have aligned ourselves closely with him and he is no longer involved in politics is that we then have a new void if the Special Relationship that many are expecting to fill EU gap.

It's not often I agree with you *** but I too fear the aftershock of Trump's limited reign purely because of the global uncertainty it will cause but whoever succeeds him will want that special relationship to continue and I see no reason why our eventual Brexit will have a detrimental effect on that.

 

[callan]

I would suggest it mainly works that way,atm.Most people seem to have a job to take up or have a reasonable expectation of doing so.

I agree.

And where there is a demand for Labour, that cannot be fulfilled locally it makes sense to import the skills in, for as long as we need them....in a controlled fashion that is mutually beneficial and not at the expense of anyone or discriminates against non EU citizens.

Isn't that fairer for all?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I agree.

And where there is a demand for Labour, that cannot be fulfilled locally it makes sense to import the skills in, for as long as we need them....in a controlled fashion that is mutually beneficial and not at the expense of anyone or discriminates against non EU citizens.

Isn't that fairer for all?

It seems to me that the UK will, necessarily, pay a high price for putting control of immigration ahead of the economy in the future Brexit negotiations with the EU.

 

[callan]

It seems to me that the UK will, necessarily, pay a high price for putting control of immigration ahead of the economy in the future Brexit negotiations with the EU.

You've lost me somewhat.

Yesterday you were posting links telling us that immigration would not slow down, which would indicate a healthy economy.

which of the posts is correct?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You've lost me somewhat.

Yesterday you were posting links telling us that immigration would not slow down, which would indicate a healthy economy.

which of the posts is correct?

I don't see any paradox between posts 847 and 853.

HMG has clearly made control of immigration its priority in Brexit negotiations.That will necessarily mean the UK leaving the single market and presumably paying a high price to access it.

Most economic forecasters have predicted a downturn in the economy once Brexit talks begin in earnest.It's widely known that the government cannot currently reduce immigration from outside the EU, (which of course it does already have control over).

Any new trade deals with non-EU countries, eg Australia,India etc, will almost certainly involve relaxing employment restrictions on their nationals.It's hard to see any significant fall in immigration figures on the horizon,especially if the economy continues to perform above expectations.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-seek-uk-migration-deal-in-brexit-trade-talks

 

[callan]

I don't see any paradox between posts 847 and 853.

HMG has clearly made control of immigration its priority in Brexit negotiations.That will necessarily mean the UK leaving the single market and presumably paying a high price to access it.

Most economic forecasters have predicted a downturn in the economy once Brexit talks begin in earnest.It's widely known that the government cannot currently reduce immigration from outside the EU, (which of course it does already have control over).

Any new trade deals with non-EU countries, eg Australia,India etc, will almost certainly involve relaxing employment restrictions on their nationals.It's hard to see any significant fall in immigration figures on the horizon,especially if the economy continues to perform above expectations.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-seek-uk-migration-deal-in-brexit-trade-talks

The paradox actually lies in the economy itself, and to a certain degree the point we are now at.

Who does it serve?.....is it providing for all?....and if it isn't why not.

Our present situation doesn't work for everyone from housing, to the NHS...schools etc....all is under pressure.

Whole communities have been left behind or changed beyond recognition, wages have remained fairly stagnant and many workers are on these zero hour contracts.

The result of this is there is now a lack of tolerance not just in the Uk but across the EU, towards the mechanisms that allow this to happen...freedom of movement is one of them and our inability to plan, lessen any negative impact for those already here, is simply not there.

Post the referendum there is opportunity to correct all this, and by effectively controlling all immigration who do we want, in what numbers, where etc has more chance of success....and there is as mentioned previously no need to have a discriminatory system in place that we do now.


So when the Australians ask for their business people to come, or the Indians their students we can do it, in the same way we can for Polish fruit pickers.... this cannot be enforced on us as it is now, it will be a choice.

Immigration doesn't, have to stop, but it should not be to the detriment of....which is a far fairer way.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

The paradox actually lies in the economy itself, and to a certain degree the point we are now at.

Who does it serve?.....is it providing for all?....and if it isn't why not.

Our present situation doesn't work for everyone from housing, to the NHS...schools etc....all is under pressure.

Whole communities have been left behind or changed beyond recognition, wages have remained fairly stagnant and many workers are on these zero hour contracts.

The result of this is there is now a lack of tolerance not just in the Uk but across the EU, towards the mechanisms that allow this to happen...freedom of movement is one of them and our inability to plan, lessen any negative impact for those already here, is simply not there.

Post the referendum there is opportunity to correct all this, and by effectively controlling all immigration who do we want, in what numbers, where etc has more chance of success....and there is as mentioned previously no need to have a discriminatory system in place that we do now.


So when the Australians ask for their business people to come, or the Indians their students we can do it, in the same way we can for Polish fruit pickers.... this cannot be enforced on us as it is now, it will be a choice.

Immigration doesn't, have to stop, but it should not be to the detriment of....which is a far fairer way.

we already have Australian business people and Indian students - migration from outside the EU is higher than from within the EU.

What has been mentioned by these two countries is that trade deals with them could include free movement of labour - so replacing the migration situation we have with the EU with the same situation with other countries. All just possibilities at the moment but then everything is.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

The paradox actually lies in the economy itself, and to a certain degree the point we are now at.

Who does it serve?.....is it providing for all?....and if it isn't why not.

Our present situation doesn't work for everyone from housing, to the NHS...schools etc....all is under pressure.

Whole communities have been left behind or changed beyond recognition, wages have remained fairly stagnant and many workers are on these zero hour contracts.

The result of this is there is now a lack of tolerance not just in the Uk but across the EU, towards the mechanisms that allow this to happen...freedom of movement is one of them and our inability to plan, lessen any negative impact for those already here, is simply not there.

Post the referendum there is opportunity to correct all this, and by effectively controlling all immigration who do we want, in what numbers, where etc has more chance of success....and there is as mentioned previously no need to have a discriminatory system in place that we do now.


So when the Australians ask for their business people to come, or the Indians their students we can do it, in the same way we can for Polish fruit pickers.... this cannot be enforced on us as it is now, it will be a choice.

Immigration doesn't, have to stop, but it should not be to the detriment of....which is a far fairer way.

So, if the economy was advancing at a reasonable rate; if public services were correctly funded; if housing was still in the realm of the average wage earner; if people had proper jobs with salaries that increased and provided more buying power.................................................would anyone (apart from a minority of racists) be very concerned about immigration?

 

[callan]

we already have Australian business people and Indian students - migration from outside the EU is higher than from within the EU.

What has been mentioned by these two countries is that trade deals with them could include free movement of labour - so replacing the migration situation we have with the EU with the same situation with other countries. All just possibilities at the moment but then everything is.

My expectation is that there will be a commitment towards assuring Indian students that they will still be able come, and a relaxation not just for Indian and Australian workers but for all workers that have the skills we need.

I worked for the Indian government for many years and am still in contact socially with many of my former colleagues from what they are saying it seems that their expectation is not to be discriminated against anymore which of course whilst in the Eu we have.

 

[callan]

So, if the economy was advancing at a reasonable rate; if public services were correctly funded; if housing was still in the realm of the average wage earner; if people had proper jobs with salaries that increased and provided more buying power.................................................would anyone (apart from a minority of racists) be very concerned about immigration?

If immigration had no negative impact or cause strain on communities and services then why would there be a concern.
All that needs to happen is to plan and control where necessary.