Hard or Soft Brexit?

[callan]

they didn't want to issue anything but were forced to, the fact that it turns out to be a pile of ***** is predictable and the fault of the government and no one else

Might be an idea to quell your enthusiasm for such victories....you are coming across as desperate now.

 

[mrsblue]

Might be an idea to quell your enthusiasm for such victories....you are coming across as desperate now.

Reckon *** was cheering when the Labour guy sitting behind Farage with his large written message.

 

[Gt Yarmouth Shrimper]

Reckon *** was cheering when the Labour guy sitting behind Farage with his large written message.

I was, because it is true.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Reckon *** was cheering when the Labour guy sitting behind Farage with his large written message.

thanks for thinking of me x

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Might be an idea to quell your enthusiasm for such victories....you are coming across as desperate now.

Desperate? For pointing out to a Remainer that Corbyn should not be where their Brexit focus lies - why is that desperate? May is seen to appease Trump while the rest of the world condemns him, Corbyn tells his MPs to back A50 (just the start of the process) because that is the democratic thing to do do and then a photo of Chamberlain is pinned on him. The leader of the Tories pre referendum was for Remain, the leader of the Tories post referendum was for Remain, the leader of Labour was for Remain. So why is Corbyn the Chamberlain here? What exactly was desperate about my post?

 

[mrsblue]

I was, because it is true.

Tell me what exactly was true ?

I and many others thought the Labour bloke lacked class and looked an imbecile ,maybe the dawn of new politics .

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

A real triumph this for Jeremy Corbyn, who can now hold in his hand and wave about a piece of paper*

*technically 77 pages, but if you strip out all the waffle and blank pages you can get it down to under a page.

You seem to have missed the point, that it was HMG (ie The Tories) under the leadership of Mrs May, which brought forward this particular White paper (at Labour's insistence,which is precisely what HM's Opposition should be doing).

It was, of course, also a Tory government under Chamberlain's leadership, that came back from Munich with that infamous piece of paper proclaiming "peace in our time",shown in the photo.

 

[callan]

Desperate? For pointing out to a Remainer that Corbyn should not be where their Brexit focus lies - why is that desperate? May is seen to appease Trump while the rest of the world condemns him, Corbyn tells his MPs to back A50 (just the start of the process) because that is the democratic thing to do do and then a photo of Chamberlain is pinned on him. The leader of the Tories pre referendum was for Remain, the leader of the Tories post referendum was for Remain, the leader of Labour was for Remain. So why is Corbyn the Chamberlain here? What exactly was desperate about my post?

Perhaps it's the way I've interpreted it.

Labour are deeply divided on Brexit and as far as I know have no policy on the subject.
The result of the party of oppositions efforts so far on Brexit, is the white paper that was issued yesterday which by your own reckoning is useless.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Labour are diametrically opposed on Brexit as I see it. The majority of the party don't want it, however I believe the leadership (despite what JC says) does.

Sorry *** but sadly the party I've voted for my entire life is in it's death throws.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Perhaps it's the way I've interpreted it.

Labour are deeply divided on Brexit and as far as I know have no policy on the subject.
The result of the party of oppositions efforts so far on Brexit, is the white paper that was issued yesterday which by your own reckoning is useless.

Labour are not in government so can not set the agenda. Yes the Tories reluctantly issued a white paper but they issued it the day after the vote, they gave it to the opposition and press 2 minutes before discussing it in Parliament, it contained typos that gave false information, the bit on trade was as if someone had googled 'trade deals in utopia' then just copied and pasted the results.
The opposition can not make the government competent, they can only force them ask the right questions and request the right information. If that information is too late, not sense checked, based on fantasy - you would expect that to reflect badly on the government.

 

[callan]

Labour are not in government so can not set the agenda. Yes the Tories reluctantly issued a white paper but they issued it the day after the vote, they gave it to the opposition and press 2 minutes before discussing it in Parliament, it contained typos that gave false information, the bit on trade was as if someone had googled 'trade deals in utopia' then just copied and pasted the results.
The opposition can not make the government competent, they can only force them ask the right questions and request the right information. If that information is too late, not sense checked, based on fantasy - you would expect that to reflect badly on the government.

Isn't the job of opposition to provide alternative and hold the government to account?

I am clear what the Lib dems, SNP etc position is regarding Brexit, I simply have no clue with Labour what their intentions are.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Perhaps it's the way I've interpreted it.

Labour are deeply divided on Brexit and as far as I know have no policy on the subject.
The result of the party of oppositions efforts so far on Brexit, is the white paper that was issued yesterday which by your own reckoning is useless.

The reason that the Labour party is divided on Brexit is quite simply because 2/3rds of Labour constituencies voted for Brexit while 1/3· voted for Remain.Party members voted overwhemingly for remain while about 60% of Labour voters also did so. Add into this mix the fact that a vast number of Labour MP's favoured Remain.

There is a Labour policy on Brexit.It is quite simply put.To ensure that Mrs May's Tory government comes back from the eventual negotiartions with the EU with the best deal possible for the UK.

Labour are diametrically opposed on Brexit as I see it. The majority of the party don't want it, however I believe the leadership (despite what JC says) does.

Sorry *** but sadly the party I've voted for my entire life is in it's death throws.

Sorry MKS but the Labour party is most certainly not in its death throes or anything like it.The demise of the Labour party has often been predicted before but it has always arisen Phoenix like.Most recently under Wilson in the 60's and Blair in the 90's.Don't ever be in a hurry to write it off.

Isn't the job of opposition to provide alternative and hold the government to account?

I am clear what the Lib dems, SNP etc position is regarding Brexit, I simply have no clue with Labour what their intentions are.

The Lib/Dems and SNP are opposed to Brexit.Labour in the next two years or more will be responsible for holding the Tories to account over the UK goverment's negotiations with the EU and providing viable and realistic alternatives.Watch this space.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Sorry MKS but the Labour party is most certainly not in its death throes or anything like it.The demise of the Labour party has often been predicted before but it has always arisen Phoenix like.Most recently under Wilson in the 60's and Blair in the 90's.Don't ever be in a hurry to write it off.

Hope so mate, but I'm not sure who they're for these days. The working classes think UKIP are their saviour which it like sticking your head in the jaws of a shark and hoping it doesn't bite. The press have made it so that socialism is a dirty word.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Isn't the job of opposition to provide alternative and hold the government to account?

I am clear what the Lib dems, SNP etc position is regarding Brexit, I simply have no clue with Labour what their intentions are.

Half of the Tory Party, probably 80% of the Labour Party and nearly 100% of the LibDems and SNP wanted to remain. There was a narrow vote to leave. As most Tory voters were for leave their position becomes straight forward. As most LibDem and SNP voters were for remain their position remains straightforward.


Labour are in a fairly unique position where most MPs voted Remain, 70% of Labour voters voted Remain, some of the Northern Labour voting areas voted Leave, the formerly Labour voting Scotland voted Remain, the UK as a whole voted Leave. There is no possible way of satisfying these different sections at the same time - so Labour have to be pragmatic.


Some MPs will feel like they have to stay 100% Remain if they voted that way and so did their constituents. That is understandable. But the party needs to be seen to back the overall decision - hence the party policy to back A50.
The policy from then is to get as good a deal as possible. If the government protect the rights of the EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU, and protect the workers rights that are enshrined in EU law, and replace the funding we will lose from the EU that went to farming and science and the regions, and keep our criminality agreements with the EU and ensure access to tariff free trading - then that is in tune with Labour policy. This and more is what Labour will look to protect. If the government fall down on any of these then Labour will fight them and publicise where the Tory government is failing. That is the policy. On day 1 they have highlighted the inadequacy of the white paper. Let's hope that was first day nerves from the government.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Hope so mate, but I'm not sure who they're for these days. The working classes think UKIP are their saviour which it like sticking your head in the jaws of a shark and hoping it doesn't bite. The press have made it so that socialism is a dirty word.

That they have MK, that they have. Why is that I wonder..........I'll tell you. It's because deep down they know which side their collective bread is buttered and can and have accepted that socialism, the likes of which you, TUIB and many others hold dear to their hearts, is dead in the water as far as being a viable economic and social model that will work where today's world climate is concerned.

All over the world previously socialist government/countries are ditching their outdated and ideological dogma and in one form or another embracing consumerism and capitalism. It's what the worlds populations want. They don't want equality for all. They don't want a one size fits all form of government. They couldn't care less is 3 out of 4 farmers 700 miles away in another part of their country are struggling to make ends meet without Government subsidies and hand outs. It doesn't effect THEM! What they want is what's best for them and they want it NOW. They want what's best for their families and their families futures. They want what's new and now, not what's old and dated. To have all that, and more, can only come from consumerism and capitalism and it has to be embraced. Politicians from all political persuasions know this and have known it for years. Labour, Con or Lib Dem, regardless of what color is in power you simply cannot dim or turn off the bright lights of capitalism as if it's just a bad blip on the historical calendar. You can argue the hind legs off a Donkey and espouse the virtues of a socialist Government of power all you like but history doesn't lie. True Socialism is about as healthy as the Dodo i'm afraid.

 

[MK Shrimper]

That they have MK, that they have. Why is that I wonder..........I'll tell you. It's because deep down they know which side their collective bread is buttered and can and have accepted that socialism, the likes of which you, TUIB and many others hold dear to their hearts, is dead in the water as far as being a viable economic and social model that will work where today's world climate is concerned.

All over the world previously socialist government/countries are ditching their outdated and ideological dogma and in one form or another embracing consumerism and capitalism. It's what the worlds populations want. They don't want equality for all. They don't want a one size fits all form of government. They couldn't care less is 3 out of 4 farmers 700 miles away in another part of their country are struggling to make ends meet without Government subsidies and hand outs. It doesn't effect THEM! What they want is what's best for them and they want it NOW. They want what's best for their families and their families futures. They want what's new and now, not what's old and dated. To have all that, and more, can only come from consumerism and capitalism and it has to be embraced. Politicians from all political persuasions know this and have known it for years. Labour, Con or Lib Dem, regardless of what color is in power you simply cannot dim or turn off the bright lights of capitalism as if it's just a bad blip on the historical calendar. You can argue the hind legs off a Donkey and espouse the virtues of a socialist Government of power all you like but history doesn't lie. True Socialism is about as healthy as the Dodo i'm afraid.

The Nordic model is doing quite well, free markets with a robust safety net.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Hope so mate, but I'm not sure who they're for these days. The working classes think UKIP are their saviour which it like sticking your head in the jaws of a shark and hoping it doesn't bite. The press have made it so that socialism is a dirty word.

Labour core principles remain the same. 'The working class' don't think UKIP are their saviours - UKIP like to tell you that but then they win nothing. Traditional Labour voters see UKIP as the enemy, there is no change there to any great extent. There are different types of Labour within the central party and that looks like a divided party but outside of that bubble for traditional voters and local parties there is no real change. Look at the other voting options - which appeal to you? Exactly, so get rid of that resting bitch face, stop moaning and go back to arguing x

 

[MK Shrimper]

Labour core principles remain the same. 'The working class' don't think UKIP are their saviours - UKIP like to tell you that but then they win nothing. Traditional Labour voters see UKIP as the enemy, there is no change there to any great extent. There are different types of Labour within the central party and that looks like a divided party but outside of that bubble for traditional voters and local parties there is no real change. Look at the other voting options - which appeal to you? Exactly, so get rid of that resting bitch face, stop moaning and go back to arguing x

Sadly mate, I'd imagine if you go back to their traditional heartlands the residents would confirm to you the exact opposite, hence why the SNP wiped them out.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Sadly mate, I'd imagine if you go back to their traditional heartlands the residents would confirm to you the exact opposite, hence why the SNP wiped them out.

that's SNP though not UKIP. SNP are Labour plus Scottish independence, UKIP are Tories minus the EU. UKIP are just Tories, that's all they are, Tories without the business backers which is why they are going bankrupt.

 

[callan]

Half of the Tory Party, probably 80% of the Labour Party and nearly 100% of the LibDems and SNP wanted to remain. There was a narrow vote to leave. As most Tory voters were for leave their position becomes straight forward. As most LibDem and SNP voters were for remain their position remains straightforward.


Labour are in a fairly unique position where most MPs voted Remain, 70% of Labour voters voted Remain, some of the Northern Labour voting areas voted Leave, the formerly Labour voting Scotland voted Remain, the UK as a whole voted Leave. There is no possible way of satisfying these different sections at the same time - so Labour have to be pragmatic.


Some MPs will feel like they have to stay 100% Remain if they voted that way and so did their constituents. That is understandable. But the party needs to be seen to back the overall decision - hence the party policy to back A50.
The policy from then is to get as good a deal as possible. If the government protect the rights of the EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU, and protect the workers rights that are enshrined in EU law, and replace the funding we will lose from the EU that went to farming and science and the regions, and keep our criminality agreements with the EU and ensure access to tariff free trading - then that is in tune with Labour policy. This and more is what Labour will look to protect. If the government fall down on any of these then Labour will fight them and publicise where the Tory government is failing. That is the policy. On day 1 they have highlighted the inadequacy of the white paper. Let's hope that was first day nerves from the government.

With the exception of immigration these appear to be pretty much the same as what the Tories put in their bill, and echoes much of what Theresa may has said in her 12 point plan.

If the white paper is inadequate, but Labour are promoting the same trite cliches that isn't opposition.