Dale farm evictions "may breach human rights"

[applelover]

How is me having a different viewpoint from the majority a contradiction exactly. You need to stop whining about what other people get and actually try to get these freedoms yourself. The travellers organise as a collective that's why they can resist. Do you do anything other than whine on forums?

 

[Bielzibubz]

That's exactly what I'm saying. And that's exactly how and why you have most of the rights you enjoy because people resisted together and forced change

Resisting together (organised peaceful protests/demonstrations) and forcing change is not the same as breaking the damn law. And you still didn't answer the question.

 

[applelover]

Resisting together (organised peaceful protests/demonstrations) and forcing change is not the same as breaking the damn law. And you still didn't answer the question.

If you do that on your own you'll get a bailiff turn up. A bailiff for a court fine can actually break into your house but generally won't, but he'll clamp your car if he sees it. If he can't collect he'll refer it back to the court and they'll get an arrest warrant.

This is what happens in individual cases, but if you got together with a few hundred people in your position and all refused to pay your fine then who knows what change you could effect. I personally don't think that speeding laws are an arse but it seems like you got more than a raw deal. Like I say if you organised and campaigned then perhaps you could change the law through an act of defiance.

In this country people get a poor deal but rather than fight for a better deal for themselves they often resent others who have resisted to get a better deal. It ends up with a race to the bottom. If you believe in a meritocracy this logic makes no sense.

Think about you fundamental rights, how many have actually been achieved without laws being broken.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Latest Echo revelations. Over to you Osy, Barna and Apple.

TRAVELLERS fighting to stay at Europe's biggest illegal camp are linked to a network of French construction companies.

The Echo can reveal 23 road surfacing and building firms were set up by businessmen registered to traveller sites and addresses across Britain and Ireland. Seven are at Dale Farm, near Billericay.

The firms, set up last year, stretch from Calais, Boulogne and Lille, in the north, to Paris, Grenoble, Besancon, Cahors, Pau and Bordeaux, in the south, and even Sarreguemines, on the border with Germany.

Our investigation has discovered the companies are run by the Irish travellers, known as the Sheridan clan, who developed Dale Farm, in Crays Hill.

Yet statements by travellers during public inquiries claim the majority of the 50 illegal plots house single mothers and pensioners, who survive on state handouts.

They argue their need for a permanent home should outweigh the harm to the green belt.

However, our latest revelation has renewed calls for inquiries into the financing of the huge Dale Farm site.

Council leader Malcolm Buckley said: "The evidence clearly suggests many of the people should not qualify for benefits if they are running businesses and living and working abroad for a significant part of the year.

"I would hope the Benefits Agency will be investigating."

At the latest public inquiry last month, David McPherson-Davis, Ramsden Crays Parish Council chairman, produced evidence two of the families had French businesses linked to their addresses, as revealed in the Echo.

They were run by men not listed as living on site, in appeal paperwork given to Basildon Council and the Planning Inspectorate.

How was site financed?

OUR revelations have fuelled mounting suspicion Dale Farm was developed by wealthy businessmen.

Crays Hill residents believe unknown developers financed the site.

Villagers believe they use the traveller status of elderly and less able relatives to win planning permission, increasing the value of the green belt land.

Ramsden Crays Parish councillor John Dornan has now called for an investigation into the financing of the site.

He said: "The travellers say up to £2.5million was invested in the site, yet on paper it is occupied mostly by women on benefits. Here is evidence of links to businesses. The Government needs to investigate."

Billericay MP John Baron said: "I shall be pressing the Government to explore whether evidence given at local inquiries stands up to scrutiny given the new information unearthed by the Echo.

"I will also be raising the possibility of benefits being dishonestly claimed."

Residents say aerial photographs of the site and the latest gipsy count figures, which show up to half the site was empty this summer, support this argument.

Most appellants argue they no longer travel through ill-health, lack of transport or financial problems, yet many of their homes were deserted.

Pictures taken in September show a number of plots with no caravans or mobile homes on, and others locked up on legal and unauthorised areas. David McPherson-Davis, Ramsden Crays Parish Council chairman, said: "Is Dale Farm really a transit base when they are in the district? These businesses indicate the travellers are not as poor as they make out."

Basildon Council leader Malcolm Buckley said involvement with foreign businesses casts doubt on their claims for needing the site on human rights grounds. He said: "If people are working abroad or living elsewhere it brings into question their need to live at Dale Farm."

Dale Farm spokesman Richard Sheridan, who has just returned from a trip lobbying a homelessness conference at the European Parliament, said he knew nothing about the businesses. He said: "This is about people's rights and children's lives and the council trying to ethnically cleanse travellers from Basildon."

Puxon facing questions

TRAVELLER activist Grattan Puxon has made no secret of Continental business links - and his admissions fly in the face of repeated traveller arguments for staying at the site.

In pleas to the Government and United Nations, he has mentioned men working overseas.

At planning appeals, the travellers claim just a handful of men of working age live at Dale Farm, and most occupants no longer travel due to poor health, poverty and lack of transport.

Yet in a submission to the UN, Mr Puxon admitted hundreds of men live at Dale Farm.

He said action was needed before "many hundreds of men", women and children were thrown on to the road.

He also admits to the site's considerable workforce.

In a plea to the Government, he wrote: "This summer many, if not most, of the able-bodied workforce are away in France, Germany and Spain, where some have registered and established private companies.

"They are following a new work pattern which involves the older folk and small children remaining at home, while the men pursue trades on the Continent."

His press releases also admit to large-scale business travelling, stating: "That's not to say they don't travel any more. Far from it. A new version of the travelling life is rapidly evolving, facilitated by the freedom of movement within the EU. Using Dale Farm as a base, they're now making extended trips to France, Germany and Spain."

However, David McPherson-Davis, Ramsden Crays Parish Council chairman, said: "These inconsistencies fly in the face of appeal evidence and need explaining.

"At inquiries we are told of hard-up women who can't travel.

"Mr Puxon's statements suggest otherwise."

Mr Puxon also admitted men not listed as living at Dale Farm are also using the site, although he would not comment on individual anomalies revealed by the businesses.

He said: "You have to bear in mind there are always some comings and goings with, in particular, younger men staying for a while and then going off on work trips.

"I have no detailed information on this score about individual plots.

"When talking about new work-patterns, with travellers going abroad, I have been referring generally to the Dale Farm and Oak Lane area as a whole."

He said his main concern remained fighting for the rights of the elderly, children and single mothers.

He added: "The static community of elderly people, some infirm, and children and single mothers in the yards without planning consent, are my concern.

"This is the main concern of the Save Dale Farm campaign."

Sheridan clan's business empire

THE Sheridan clan's French businesses reveal more evidence of an empire stretching from Ireland to Essex and the Midlands.

Eight of the company directors, some of whom also deal in antiques and furniture, claimed Dale Farm was their home.

Other businessmen used addresses in areas where links to Dale Farm had already been established by previous Echo investigations.

 

[steveo]

How is me having a different viewpoint from the majority a contradiction exactly. You need to stop whining about what other people get and actually try to get these freedoms yourself. The travellers organise as a collective that's why they can resist. Do you do anything other than whine on forums?

And you ignore yet another question.You intimate that if enough people don't like something they should get together and get i changed. I said, and its only a guess, most English people want to get rid of these law breaking travellers so by your own view this must be right and should be done.

I'm not whining about what other people get, it doesn't really affect me but I do believe in fairness, so if I need to have planning permission I would expect everyone else. You on the other hand, support the illegal building and occupation at Dale Farm, you also support tax dodgers which clearly shows you have pretty low standards, and you seem to have the I don't care what happens as long as it doesn't affect me attitude.

 

[OldBlueLady]

The Sheridans are notorious, I can't understand how any law abiding, tax paying British citizen can possibly defend them. And as to the point about the 2000 homes at Jotmans, yes, I've signed petitions against that, against the proposed developments at the back of Woodside Park and off the Chase. Last I heard, the leader of CPBC was potentially going to be forced to resign over this debacle and the numbers had all been scaled down at Jotmans anyway.....and that's if it DOES happen. It's completely irrelevant to the question of the Dale Farmites - although what I will just add in is how many others chuckle inwardly at the "plot" to the west of Sadlers between the new and old A13...massive mounds of earth encroaching in on them from almost all sides!

 

[applelover]

And you ignore yet another question.You intimate that if enough people don't like something they should get together and get i changed. I said, and its only a guess, most English people want to get rid of these law breaking travellers so by your own view this must be right and should be done.

I'm not whining about what other people get, it doesn't really affect me but I do believe in fairness, so if I need to have planning permission I would expect everyone else. You on the other hand, support the illegal building and occupation at Dale Farm, you also support tax dodgers which clearly shows you have pretty low standards, and you seem to have the I don't care what happens as long as it doesn't affect me attitude.

1. I would thoroughly support your right to organise and try to affect change, I just don't believe the end result, moving a handful of travellers, is worth the effort. I think you would be better focusing you efforts on things that would improve your situation rather than drag others down who have improved their situation.

2. Your idea of fairness is nothing more than a "race to the bottom". You sound like youd rather everyone had nothing than the majority having more at the expense of some having a bit more. There is a classic critique of socialism (it might be adam smith or john rawls) about this. With your defence of fairness you are the one who sounds like a socialist. I don't support tax evasion I just understand it and won't condemn it. We pay far too much tax surely you should be pleased that some of your fellow citizens aren't facing the same burden.

 

[applelover]

Latest Echo revelations. Over to you Osy, Barna and Apple.

TRAVELLERS fighting to stay at Europe's biggest illegal camp are linked to a network of French construction companies.

The Echo can reveal 23 road surfacing and building firms were set up by businessmen registered to traveller sites and addresses across Britain and Ireland. Seven are at Dale Farm, near Billericay.

The firms, set up last year, stretch from Calais, Boulogne and Lille, in the north, to Paris, Grenoble, Besancon, Cahors, Pau and Bordeaux, in the south, and even Sarreguemines, on the border with Germany.

Our investigation has discovered the companies are run by the Irish travellers, known as the Sheridan clan, who developed Dale Farm, in Crays Hill.

Yet statements by travellers during public inquiries claim the majority of the 50 illegal plots house single mothers and pensioners, who survive on state handouts.

They argue their need for a permanent home should outweigh the harm to the green belt.

However, our latest revelation has renewed calls for inquiries into the financing of the huge Dale Farm site.

Council leader Malcolm Buckley said: "The evidence clearly suggests many of the people should not qualify for benefits if they are running businesses and living and working abroad for a significant part of the year.

"I would hope the Benefits Agency will be investigating."

At the latest public inquiry last month, David McPherson-Davis, Ramsden Crays Parish Council chairman, produced evidence two of the families had French businesses linked to their addresses, as revealed in the Echo.

They were run by men not listed as living on site, in appeal paperwork given to Basildon Council and the Planning Inspectorate.

How was site financed?

OUR revelations have fuelled mounting suspicion Dale Farm was developed by wealthy businessmen.

Crays Hill residents believe unknown developers financed the site.

Villagers believe they use the traveller status of elderly and less able relatives to win planning permission, increasing the value of the green belt land.

Ramsden Crays Parish councillor John Dornan has now called for an investigation into the financing of the site.

He said: "The travellers say up to £2.5million was invested in the site, yet on paper it is occupied mostly by women on benefits. Here is evidence of links to businesses. The Government needs to investigate."

Billericay MP John Baron said: "I shall be pressing the Government to explore whether evidence given at local inquiries stands up to scrutiny given the new information unearthed by the Echo.

"I will also be raising the possibility of benefits being dishonestly claimed."

Residents say aerial photographs of the site and the latest gipsy count figures, which show up to half the site was empty this summer, support this argument.

Most appellants argue they no longer travel through ill-health, lack of transport or financial problems, yet many of their homes were deserted.

Pictures taken in September show a number of plots with no caravans or mobile homes on, and others locked up on legal and unauthorised areas. David McPherson-Davis, Ramsden Crays Parish Council chairman, said: "Is Dale Farm really a transit base when they are in the district? These businesses indicate the travellers are not as poor as they make out."

Basildon Council leader Malcolm Buckley said involvement with foreign businesses casts doubt on their claims for needing the site on human rights grounds. He said: "If people are working abroad or living elsewhere it brings into question their need to live at Dale Farm."

Dale Farm spokesman Richard Sheridan, who has just returned from a trip lobbying a homelessness conference at the European Parliament, said he knew nothing about the businesses. He said: "This is about people's rights and children's lives and the council trying to ethnically cleanse travellers from Basildon."

Puxon facing questions

TRAVELLER activist Grattan Puxon has made no secret of Continental business links - and his admissions fly in the face of repeated traveller arguments for staying at the site.

In pleas to the Government and United Nations, he has mentioned men working overseas.

At planning appeals, the travellers claim just a handful of men of working age live at Dale Farm, and most occupants no longer travel due to poor health, poverty and lack of transport.

Yet in a submission to the UN, Mr Puxon admitted hundreds of men live at Dale Farm.

He said action was needed before "many hundreds of men", women and children were thrown on to the road.

He also admits to the site's considerable workforce.

In a plea to the Government, he wrote: "This summer many, if not most, of the able-bodied workforce are away in France, Germany and Spain, where some have registered and established private companies.

"They are following a new work pattern which involves the older folk and small children remaining at home, while the men pursue trades on the Continent."

His press releases also admit to large-scale business travelling, stating: "That's not to say they don't travel any more. Far from it. A new version of the travelling life is rapidly evolving, facilitated by the freedom of movement within the EU. Using Dale Farm as a base, they're now making extended trips to France, Germany and Spain."

However, David McPherson-Davis, Ramsden Crays Parish Council chairman, said: "These inconsistencies fly in the face of appeal evidence and need explaining.

"At inquiries we are told of hard-up women who can't travel.

"Mr Puxon's statements suggest otherwise."

Mr Puxon also admitted men not listed as living at Dale Farm are also using the site, although he would not comment on individual anomalies revealed by the businesses.

He said: "You have to bear in mind there are always some comings and goings with, in particular, younger men staying for a while and then going off on work trips.

"I have no detailed information on this score about individual plots.

"When talking about new work-patterns, with travellers going abroad, I have been referring generally to the Dale Farm and Oak Lane area as a whole."

He said his main concern remained fighting for the rights of the elderly, children and single mothers.

He added: "The static community of elderly people, some infirm, and children and single mothers in the yards without planning consent, are my concern.

"This is the main concern of the Save Dale Farm campaign."

Sheridan clan's business empire

THE Sheridan clan's French businesses reveal more evidence of an empire stretching from Ireland to Essex and the Midlands.

Eight of the company directors, some of whom also deal in antiques and furniture, claimed Dale Farm was their home.

Other businessmen used addresses in areas where links to Dale Farm had already been established by previous Echo investigations.

This is a definite issue and I don't believe for one minute that poverty is a genuine defence. Working where I work makes me fully aware of the level of benefit fraud in the traveller community. Benefit fraud is an issue across the welfare state, provide people with jobs, if they don't want to work they don't get any money, problem solved.

 

[applelover]

The Sheridans are notorious, I can't understand how any law abiding, tax paying British citizen can possibly defend them. And as to the point about the 2000 homes at Jotmans, yes, I've signed petitions against that, against the proposed developments at the back of Woodside Park and off the Chase. Last I heard, the leader of CPBC was potentially going to be forced to resign over this debacle and the numbers had all been scaled down at Jotmans anyway.....and that's if it DOES happen. It's completely irrelevant to the question of the Dale Farmites - although what I will just add in is how many others chuckle inwardly at the "plot" to the west of Sadlers between the new and old A13...massive mounds of earth encroaching in on them from almost all sides!

I will happily stand in solidarity with you and my fellow benfleeters against this ridiculous plan. If you hear anything more about this please PM me.

I saw one of the campaigners on the local news the other day say that Basildon and the government are up in arms about Dale farm yet our council supported by the goverment want to approve the building of 2000 homes on green belt land in Castle Point. What a lad.

 

[steveo]

I think you would be better focusing you efforts on things that would improve your situation rather than drag others down who have improved their situation.

Firstly I don't need or want to improve my situation, seeing a few more Buffalo Bills games would be good but I can manage.

Your idea of fairness is nothing more than a "race to the bottom"

Which anyone wanting to do well could view as a race to the top. Or better still a race to where they will be happy.

We pay far too much tax surely you should be pleased that some of your fellow citizens aren't facing the same burden.

Are you saying I should have a bigger burden than my fellow citizens? Doesn't seem very fair to me. I am quite happy to pay my share but I expect others to do the same. You obviously don't agree.

Lets go back to basics, dont you agree that if the travellers are allowed to remain, it would open the floodgates for people to build anything they want? Surely you don't need to dodge that one.

 

[Shrimper]

I've noted people like you , Steveo and Bielzibubz are incapable of reading or processing information that divinates from your world views . This is both sad and frighting . Maybe it's time you all realised its not a simple world of right and wrong black or white . No matter what you were brought up with .

Not a world of right and wrong? Erm. Yes it is. The law is the law and if you break it you face the consequences. Any person with a brain would realise this.

 

[applelover]

Firstly I don't need or want to improve my situation, seeing a few more Buffalo Bills games would be good but I can manage.

You obviously do want to make a lot of changes otherwise you wouldn't post on political or social issues so much


Which anyone wanting to do well could view as a race to the top. Or better still a race to where they will be happy.

Are you saying I should have a bigger burden than my fellow citizens? Doesn't seem very fair to me. I am quite happy to pay my share but I expect others to do the same. You obviously don't agree.

It must be clear by now that i'm saying that everyone should have a distinctly lower burden. They current situation is grossly unfair that is the reason so many people, not just travellers are resisting

Lets go back to basics, dont you agree that if the travellers are allowed to remain, it would open the floodgates for people to build anything they want? Surely you don't need to dodge that one.

No, you'd have an amnesty on such sites followed by a zero tolerance policy. You'd start from year 0 and consign the current problems to history. Not ideal or principled but practical. Principles are great but they often cost a lot of money. I don't want 18 million wasted on this farce.

 

[applelover]

Not a world of right and wrong? Erm. Yes it is. The law is the law and if you break it you face the consequences. Any person with a brain would realise this.

What if the law is distinctly unfair. What if the law stated that posters on this board, going by the name of shrimper,:smile: had to wear a col u shirt 24/7 :smile:

 

[Napster]

Didn't one of the Sheridans play for Sheffield Wednesday?

 

[steveo]

What if the law is distinctly unfair. What if the law stated that posters on this board, going by the name of shrimper,:smile: had to wear a col u shirt 24/7 :smile:

But disagreeing with a law doesnt mean you should be able to break it.

And after your amnesty, someone builds a block of flats in their own land without permission. They will request and amnesty based on the Dale Farm precedent and why shouldn't they get it?

You don't live on Dale Farm do you?

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

This is a definite issue and I don't believe for one minute that poverty is a genuine defence. Working where I work makes me fully aware of the level of benefit fraud in the traveller community. Benefit fraud is an issue across the welfare state, provide people with jobs, if they don't want to work they don't get any money, problem solved.

Thank you for an honest answer. It seems that so many people are aware of the benefit fraud committed by the travellers, but no one can, or will do any thing about it.
As for the jobs thing, it's not that kind of fraud. It's lying about co-habiting and money coming in from the males. Also lying about savings and land and property that they own. Enabling the women to claim maximum benefits and tax credits for each child.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Applelover, let me put this hypothetical scenario to you. We give the Dale Farm gypo's the amnesty from prosecution your advocating and let them keep their illegally erected homes, roads, walls etc. Now lets move on 12 months and we hear of 15 families have moved on to green belt land just outside Cambridge knowing full well that the land they bought never has had building permission granted, but they move on to it regardless. They apply for retrospective planning permission and it's refused. Cambridgeshire County Council apply for and are granted eviction notices on these illegal pitches. During the weeks that follow and prior to the eviction date the travelers have swelled in number to around 25 families and they have lodged an appeal against the original eviction notices on the grounds that it would impinge on their basic human rights to a family life. This scenario goes on and on through the courts with ever higher legal fee's being racked up by both parties until the total cost has reached £2m to enforce eviction.

Now what do we do about these gypo's that have broken the law? How do they difer from those at Dale farm. How does Joe Bloggs at number 22 Acasia Avenue differ from the Dale Farmerites (stolen from OBL) after he's built his four bed semi without planning permission? Can he keep that too or does the precedence set for the Dale Farm lot not now apply?

 

[pickledseal]

As I've said before, it seems odd that over the last few weeks the government have decided they are going to relax planning laws and make it easier to build on greenbelt. I personally feel there should be greater rights to build on your own land.

 

[applelover]

Applelover, let me put this hypothetical scenario to you. We give the Dale Farm gypo's the amnesty from prosecution your advocating and let them keep their illegally erected homes, roads, walls etc. Now lets move on 12 months and we hear of 15 families have moved on to green belt land just outside Cambridge knowing full well that the land they bought never has had building permission granted, but they move on to it regardless. They apply for retrospective planning permission and it's refused. Cambridgeshire County Council apply for and are granted eviction notices on these illegal pitches. During the weeks that follow and prior to the eviction date the travelers have swelled in number to around 25 families and they have lodged an appeal against the original eviction notices on the grounds that it would impinge on their basic human rights to a family life. This scenario goes on and on through the courts with ever higher legal fee's being racked up by both parties until the total cost has reached £2m to enforce eviction.

Now what do we do about these gypo's that have broken the law? How do they difer from those at Dale farm. How does Joe Bloggs at number 22 Acasia Avenue differ from the Dale Farmerites (stolen from OBL) after he's built his four bed semi without planning permission? Can he keep that too or does the precedence set for the Dale Farm lot not now apply?

Like I said year 0. Zero tolerance from now on seems like a practical if not ideal situation. Make legislation changes and disregard any European judgements on the issue. Again not ideal but without a fundamental change in planning law it's the best chance for a cost effective solution to the current situation with the teeth to mean that this won't happen again

 

[applelover]

But disagreeing with a law doesnt mean you should be able to break it.

And after your amnesty, someone builds a block of flats in their own land without permission. They will request and amnesty based on the Dale Farm precedent and why shouldn't they get it?

You don't live on Dale Farm do you?

No this policy relates solely to traveller sites to deal with a current issue without spending 18 million. As I've said nearly all the fundamental rights you enjoy were gained with some form of law breaking involved. That is the history of social and political change.

I'm benfleet born and bred.