Dale farm evictions "may breach human rights"

[Bielzibubz]

Liberty to me is a key component of happiness and the following freedoms are key to liberty

- freedom of citizens from over-taxation
- freedom from excessive government interference into private lives of citizens (this includes our private property eg land)

Any liberal conservative who champions a small state must support these statements and yet I read several posters who champion these ideals lambasting gypsies for asserting these very freedoms. There is no logic in such contradictory arguments. Why attack those, using the do-as-you-likey argument, who are defying the very laws that you despise.

I'm not a supporter of classical liberalism or laissez faire capitalism as I believe that the right to work is also a key component of liberty. I would allow government to make interventions into the economy to guarantee 100% employment and would remove most welfare entitlements except for those truely unable to work. Problem of benefit fraud in the gypsy community solved.

If these three freedoms were guaranteed then the main gripes about gypsies (tax avoidance, breaking planning permission and fraudulently claiming benefits) from those on the 'right' (for want of a better term) are no longer an issue. For me the 'problem' of gypsies is largely the result of systemic failings in our system of government. Unfortunately gypsy culture, even more than the various cultires in the settled community, is dependent on the ideal of personal freedom. That is part of the reason that their culture clashes so heavily with a British system of governance and law based around authoritarian control and state interference.

A very laudable & idealistic view of the world and your perfectly entitled to it. Unfortunately or otherwise we don't live in it and thus we have to abide by the laws of the land we live in whether we like it or not. Also, one of the most basic rules of a humane and decent society is the ability of government and authority to uphold the rule of law, regardless of monetary cost.

 

[steveo]

I definitely don't think they should be evicted. Complete waste of money and they will only move somewhere else which will result in another legal battle. Have an amnesty on the site, survey every building and come down like a ton of bricks if any other structures appear. Also compensate any loss of property value for the surrounding residents which has resulted from the site. That's my practical point made.

So left them off for breaking the law but threaten to evict them if they break the law again then?

You obviously dont give a *** about them building on this land because im guessing its nowhere near where you live. Would you have the same view if someone did the same in your road

And you admire people who don't pay tax because you hate it?

Another typical lefty view that everyone who has got some money should pay more so you and your pikey mates can get everything they want for nothing.

So a simple question, if you are happy for these people to send their kids to school, use hospitals and the health service and of course legal aid for help with their appeals, but not pay any tax, how will all these things be funded?

 

[applelover]

So left them off for breaking the law but threaten to evict them if they break the law again then?

You obviously dont give a *** about them building on this land because im guessing its nowhere near where you live. Would you have the same view if someone did the same in your road

And you admire people who don't pay tax because you hate it?

Another typical lefty view that everyone who has got some money should pay more so you and your pikey mates can get everything they want for nothing.

So a simple question, if you are happy for these people to send their kids to school, use hospitals and the health service and of course legal aid for help with their appeals, but not pay any tax, how will all these things be funded?

How you've read a passage describing what a mimimal state looks like and the come up with the term 'lefty' is beyond anyone's comprehension but your own. :thump:

 

[pickledseal]

Thats a good point youg Andrew but no one is forced to break the law most people choose to break it,like buidling ilegaly,or driving over the speed limit or breaking into some ones house and getting stabbed to death,your god gave you choice,use it wisely.

Indeed! Free will is the greatest gift we have. However I disagree that all people choose to break the law, at times, some people are near on forced into it. I hope I'm never in a situation where I need to, not in a serious way anyway.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Indeed! Free will is the greatest gift we have. However I disagree that all people choose to break the law, at times, some people are near on forced into it. I hope I'm never in a situation where I need to, not in a serious way anyway.

I don't want to misinterpret you, but are you saying that the inert travellers have been forced into breaking the law?

 

[applelover]

A very laudable & idealistic view of the world and your perfectly entitled to it. Unfortunately or otherwise we don't live in it and thus we have to abide by the laws of the land we live in whether we like it or not. Also, one of the most basic rules of a humane and decent society is the ability of government and authority to uphold the rule of law, regardless of monetary cost.

Unfortunately the history of change is a history of resistance and conflict not grudging adherance to the rule of law.

You know what an arse the planning law is, and yet you have a group here who are resisting this arse of a law and yet rather than support them you help prop up a sytem that has actually injured you. Can you not see how self-defeating that is?

 

[applelover]

I don't want to misinterpret you, but are you saying that the inert travellers have been forced into breaking the law?

I am saying that to a point. Their culture is entirely at odds with the authoritarianism and systems of control in the UK. English cultire is at odds with it too, that is wht i believe that we don't have the sense of community that other European countries have.

We have a great country but we have strangled it, the gypsies resist, we just lie down and take it and then condemn them.

 

[steveo]

How you've read a passage describing what a mimimal state looks like and the come up with the term 'lefty' is beyond anyone's comprehension but your own. :thump:

Hang on a minute, this ideal world you want where nobody pays tax and everybody works is not going to happen here so why not be a bit more realistic. I'm quite shocked that you actually admire tax dodging pikeys. So you are happy for working people to subsidise gypo's and you dont mind them breaking the law as long as they promise not to do it again, and you would object to houses being built on green belt to help solve the housing shortage but it's ok for travellers to build what they want as long as it isn't near you. Answers please.

 

[canveyshrimper]

I am saying that to a point. Their culture is entirely at odds with the authoritarianism and systems of control in the UK. English cultire is at odds with it too, that is wht i believe that we don't have the sense of community that other European countries have.

We have a great country but we have strangled it, the gypsies resist, we just lie down and take it and then condemn them.

I'm not sure why you are answering on behalf of pickledseal. The people on Dale Fram all appear to be Irish, therefore if English culture is against their beliefs then they have the option to return to their nice purpose built housing estates in Ireland. Are they gypsies? I think not, tinkers and diddicoys yes, gypsies, no.

 

[applelover]

Hang on a minute, this ideal world you want where nobody pays tax and everybody works is not going to happen here so why not be a bit more realistic. I'm quite shocked that you actually admire tax dodging pikeys. So you are happy for working people to subsidise gypo's and you dont mind them breaking the law as long as they promise not to do it again, and you would object to houses being built on green belt to help solve the housing shortage but it's ok for travellers to build what they want as long as it isn't near you. Answers please.

1. I object to excessive tax. We have excessive taxes in the UK and I won't condemn anyone who avoids it. I believe in a minimal state with minimal tax and the deconstruction of the welfare state

2. It is going to cost up to 18 million pounds to remove them. I'd rather you spend that things that create wealth for the people of Basildon not give it to lawyers and bailiffs. Amnesty now, immedaite ton of bricks for further violations.

3. They own the land and they have put a few caravans on it. I don't think this is really comparable to building 2000 homes in an already overpopulated area.

Happy?

 

[applelover]

I'm not sure why you are answering on behalf of pickledseal. The people on Dale Fram all appear to be Irish, therefore if English culture is against their beliefs then they have the option to return to their nice purpose built housing estates in Ireland. Are they gypsies? I think not, tinkers and diddicoys yes, gypsies, no.

I'm saying that your culture is at odds with the current system as well. Why prop it up?

 

[canveyshrimper]

I'm saying that your culture is at odds with the current system as well. Why prop it up?

My culture? What do you know or think you know about my culture?

 

[Bielzibubz]

Unfortunately the history of change is a history of resistance and conflict not grudging adherance to the rule of law.

You know what an arse the planning law is, and yet you have a group here who are resisting this arse of a law and yet rather than support them you help prop up a sytem that has actually injured you. Can you not see how self-defeating that is?

So what your advocating here, and in other posts, is any law that one might not agree with or one which might impinge on one's right to certain freedoms is a law that requires resistance and ultimately breaking?

I asked you a question earlier regarding the unfairness and inconsistency of the speeding laws in this country and whether because it is so obviously flawed (the discretionary powers of a copper and the totally non discretionary use of average speed cameras) whether I should resist that law and not pay my fine. It's the same principle as the Dale Farm pykies. Two laws, both patently with faults, but until they are changed both HAVE to be abide'd by in my opinion.

 

[steveo]

1. I object to excessive tax. We have excessive taxes in the UK and I won't condemn anyone who avoids it. I believe in a minimal state with minimal tax and the deconstruction of the welfare state

2. It is going to cost up to 18 million pounds to remove them. I'd rather you spend that things that create wealth for the people of Basildon not give it to lawyers and bailiffs. Amnesty now, immedaite ton of bricks for further violations.

3. They own the land and they have put a few caravans on it. I don't think this is really comparable to building 2000 homes in an already overpopulated area.

Happy?

1) I think everyone would like to pay less tax but its not something you can just drop. How do you feel about the current system? A bloke who earns 50 grand pays far more tax than a bloke who earns 20 grand. So is it fair that the bloke who earns more not only pays more but also pays a large portion at a higher rate?

2) Yes 18 million is a lot of money and I would rather it be spent on other stuff but if you dont evict them you are more or less saying to anoyne they can build anything on any land they buy. That would leave the way open for developers to build all sorts of stuff, e.g 2000 homes which would also annoy you.

3) Do you suggest changing the law so "a few caravans" are ok then? Where do you draw the line, how about a few small bungalows wont matter, then maybe a couple of semi's, small block of flats maybe? And of course they have roads and hard standing, is that ok as long as they are quite small?

Building in over populated areas doesnt make sense to me either but house need to be built to cater for the ever expanding influx of immigrants. Would probably be better building complete new towns but then the tree huggers would be up in arms.

And further to your reply to Canvey, we probably dont have the sense of community because most other countries would have dealt with this a number of years ago with bulldozers. Maybe the common Englishman is fed up with seeing minorities, scroungers, cheats and pikeys get preferential treatment.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

I definitely don't think they should be evicted. Complete waste of money and they will only move somewhere else which will result in another legal battle. Have an amnesty on the site, survey every building and come down like a ton of bricks if any other structures appear. Also compensate any loss of property value for the surrounding residents which has resulted from the site. That's my practical point made.

People say they've broken the law, this is true. However the planning laws are an arse and everybody accepts they need to be changed. So I don't give a **** **** about them building on this land. I was much more concerned with the proposed 2000 new homes on green belt land on Jotmans farm. If you're from benfleet this seems to be the issue that should have angered you and not a few caravans.

From a personal point of view I'd go as far as saying i'm 'Team Gypsy' and can't help smiling everytime I see/hear/read angry reactionary racists getting wound up by each delay in the process. I work with travellers on a regular basis and for the most part find them easy to work with and extremely entertaining. Some of them don't pay tax but I hate tax so sort of admire them for doing so. Are there any self-employed people on these boards that can say that they've always been honest to the tax man?

Blatant disregard for the law, sticking 2 fingers up at society in a 'we do what we want' proclomation......Eviction is the least they deserve

 

[applelover]

My culture? What do you know or think you know about my culture?

With a name like canvey shrimper I'm going to make an educated guess.:smile:

 

[McNasty]

With a name like canvey shrimper I'm going to make an educated guess.:smile:

So are we to assume that applelover makes you a drunken ****-head cider drinker then ?

 

[canveyshrimper]

With a name like canvey shrimper I'm going to make an educated guess.:smile:

Or uneducated as the case may be.

So are we to assume that applelover makes you a drunken ****-head cider drinker then ?

:hilarious:

 

[applelover]

So what your advocating here, and in other posts, is any law that one might not agree with or one which might impinge on one's right to certain freedoms is a law that requires resistance and ultimately breaking?

I asked you a question earlier regarding the unfairness and inconsistency of the speeding laws in this country and whether because it is so obviously flawed (the discretionary powers of a copper and the totally non discretionary use of average speed cameras) whether I should resist that law and not pay my fine. It's the same principle as the Dale Farm pykies. Two laws, both patently with faults, but until they are changed both HAVE to be abide'd by in my opinion.

That's exactly what I'm saying. And that's exactly how and why you have most of the rights you enjoy because people resisted together and forced change

 

[steveo]

That's exactly what I'm saying. And that's exactly how and why you have most of the rights you enjoy because people resisted together and forced change

So you are basically saying if the majority want something it should eventually get done and therefore must be right. My guess is the majority of English people want these travellers removed, not just from Dale Farm but from this Country which by your logic makes it the right thing to do. So why are you against it? A major contradiction wouldn't you agree?