Dale farm evictions "may breach human rights"

[Tangled up in Blue]

Guardian Focus podcast: Dale Farm and sites for Travellers http://gu.com/p/326qv/tw via @guardian

Interesting podcast.

"Inquiries made by this Guardian Focus podcast suggest that of the £97m made available for the Gypsy and Traveller grant programme in 2008, only £17m has been spent on providing sites. So where did the money go?"

Loved the idea of "call me Dave" popping round to a caravan site and recruiting a few Tory Councillors and MP's from the family orientated Travellers.:smiles:

 

[Bielzibubz]

Oooo nice worm on the end of that one.............i'll bite though.

£97m grant set aside for finding sites! You mean the thieving scrum don't buy the land themselves?

I would hazard a guess the other £81m went on brand new 4x4's and a couple of thousand copies of Snatch with a substantial amount of the remainder going into research to establish exactly how to alienate themselves from society more than they already are.

 

[osymandus]

With so much money involved surely the Baz legal team anticipated every possible legal challenge? I'm no legal bod but given the nature of this you would have thought so? Of course the travellers were going to try every legal route possible... wouldn't you?

Seems this has been one massive fail and the longer it goes on the more likely it is they will get to stay I'd imagine, cue residents claiming against the council for all kinds of things.

Sadly it appears not to be the case a . A good example is the first eviction notice was only for removal of non permanent structures only , BC know this but allowed it anyway , hence why the travellers got the last minute repeal as the judge was quoted as saying it would have been illegal for BC to evict everyone (in last weeks echo btw ). Some could be said to be a case of "we are authority , we say what goes ... " which is as idiotic as "oh were travvlers we own the land , so means we can build on it" , both knew the law both ignored it .

Many of these so called human rights challenges are debated and challenged by extremely well educated and experienced legal minds so its always amusing when you get a DM journalist trying to tear them down after a liquid lunch and a few brief scan reads (the broadsheets take at least a day so im told ;))

 

[osymandus]

Unfortunately common sense is too subjective... It's also increasingly lacking in some members of younger generations.

Common sense is emotive, subjective and contextual . Nothing of any real use in a rational or intellectual debate.

 

[pickledseal]

Oooo nice worm on the end of that one.............i'll bite though.

£97m grant set aside for finding sites! You mean the thieving scrum don't buy the land themselves?

I would hazard a guess the other £81m went on brand new 4x4's and a couple of thousand copies of Snatch with a substantial amount of the remainder going into research to establish exactly how to alienate themselves from society more than they already are.

I think you'll find the article suggests that the £81m was never spent - well not on travellers - and perhaps reassigned to other Council projects.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Oooo nice worm on the end of that one.............i'll bite though.

£97m grant set aside for finding sites! You mean the thieving scrum don't buy the land themselves?

I would hazard a guess the other £81m went on brand new 4x4's and a couple of thousand copies of Snatch with a substantial amount of the remainder going into research to establish exactly how to alienate themselves from society more than they already are.

I think you'll find the article suggests that the £81m was never spent - well not on travellers - and perhaps reassigned to other Council projects.

Oh dear. Surely you didn't think the last paragraph of my reply was of a serious nature did you? Humor really is lost on some people isn't it :unsure:

I didn't read the article because as far as I'm concerned spending £17.00 on finding the drains on society a place to park their mobile homes, let alone £17m, is a complete waste of tax payers cash. Spending said amount on upholding the common rule of law and making sure they adhere to it is another matter entirely and every penny is money well spent in my opinion.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Yeah I've never understood why the EU in the 50's needed their own version... and also why the one we signed up to in 1998/2000 made things so radically different. I remember Billy Bragg talking a few years back about it would be great to have a very clear point of reference for UK citizens. He said something along the lines of the Bill of Rights in the US (which isn't perfect!). It's a bit like all the students at my school have to carry in their pocket the school mission statement/code of conduct and at times staff ask them to take it out and read it if they have been poorly behaved. It's a very clear point if reference.

The EEC (Common Market) was found by the Treaty of Rome in the mid 50's and at that time was made up of 6 countries, France, Germany, Holland, Italy, Belgium & Luxembourg. It's foundation was intially as an area of free trade. Subsequently this organisation grew & grew into what we now know as the EU, it was the EU back in the 90's that saddled Europe with their version of a human rights act. Quite rightly IMO the Major Government opted to keep us out of this preferring the UNCHR version.

Unfortunately the Blair Government rushed us into signing up for the EU version, hardly surprising when that razor lipped rat of a wife represents one of the main Chambers that operates within the human rights act. Cameron has long said he wants a British bill of rights, which is fine but Clegg has now got up on his hind legs saying we should maintain the current lunacy. I sugeest that Cameron tells Clegg the Lib Dems are the junior partners in this coalition and he can **** right off accordingly. The choice that Clegg will then have is to pull the Lib Dems out of the coalition or carry on. I doubt if he'll opt for the former as it's likely his party will get slaughtered in a General Election.

My point about common sense, is that whatever madness the EU produces and dresses up as law we seem to go along with and we have the benefit of pen pushing "Nazis" enforcing whatever ludicrous law is thrust upon us. Where I admire the attitude of the French, Spanish, Italian and most of our EU partners is, that if something is plainly stupid and unenforceable they ignore it.

 

[Napster]

Can't we all just blame Ted Heath for selling us out to Europe.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Can't we all just blame Ted Heath for selling us out to Europe.

Not entirely as the Wilson Government of 1964/1970 was trying to get us in. However it was grocer Heath who signed up for membership and we joined in 1973.

 

[pickledseal]

Nice touch from the ol' bill tonight... Had the speed camera van in the 50mph zone by Basildon. The zone that is only 50mph due to site entrance for bailiffs into Dale Farm. Is it supposed to wind up locals?

 

[steveo]

Nice touch from the ol' bill tonight... Had the speed camera van in the 50mph zone by Basildon. The zone that is only 50mph due to site entrance for bailiffs into Dale Farm. Is it supposed to wind up locals?

Its been parked there for 2 weeks.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I think you'll find the article suggests that the £81m was never spent - well not on travellers - and perhaps reassigned to other Council projects.

Oh dear. Surely you didn't think the last paragraph of my reply was of a serious nature did you? Humor really is lost on some people isn't it :unsure:

I didn't read the article because as far as I'm concerned spending £17.00 on finding the drains on society a place to park their mobile homes, let alone £17m, is a complete waste of tax payers cash. Spending said amount on upholding the common rule of law and making sure they adhere to it is another matter entirely and every penny is money well spent in my opinion.

I'm not sure about the article but it's quite clear from the podcast, that as PS suggests, the 81 million quid was never spent on buying legal plots for Travellers-as local councils were required to provide by law-and will almost certainly now be reassigned to other Council projects.So much for the much vaunted policy of localism.

 

[pickledseal]

Its been parked there for 2 weeks.

Really? What times? I've not seen it before. Came home about 830 for first time today.

 

[steveo]

Really? What times? I've not seen it before. Came home about 830 for first time today.

Always there between 4.30 and 5.30, never seen anyone in the cab though. Might just be a deterrent.

 

[Benfleet A1]

Common sense is emotive, subjective and contextual . Nothing of any real use in a rational or intellectual debate.

Common sense isn't of any use during rational or intellectual debate, right ho.

Teaching children to safey cross the road is common sense. Silly me, its not rational or intellectual.

Not diving into a empty swimming pool is common sense. Doh! I did it again, useless because its not rational or intellectual.

Slapping your todger into a lions mouth while flicking his love spuds with a wet towel is probably not a good idea thus common sense not to do it. But wait one cotton picking minute, its not rational or intellectual. Flick away.

 

[osymandus]

Common sense isn't of any use during rational or intellectual debate, right ho.

Teaching children to safey cross the road is common sense. Silly me, its not rational or intellectual.

Not diving into a empty swimming pool is common sense. Doh! I did it again, useless because its not rational or intellectual.

Slapping your todger into a lions mouth while flicking his love spuds with a wet towel is probably not a good idea thus common sense not to do it. But wait one cotton picking minute, its not rational or intellectual. Flick away.

And that ladies and gentleman is an example of emotive nonsense over intellectual debate. You silly arse.

 

[Rudi Luftwaffe]

Common sense is emotive, subjective and contextual . Nothing of any real use in a rational or intellectual debate.

Rationality and intellect are of little use when someone objects to being condescended to and suggests a more physical resolution to the debate.

 

[osymandus]

Rationality and intellect are of little use when someone objects to being condescended to and suggests a more physical resolution to the debate.

Unless they used it to go an learn how to fight ? And learnt about anatomy and not waste time battering each other like animals and strike in vulnerable areas (requires an intellect to know where to strike to cripple or maim ).

 

[Benfleet A1]

And that ladies and gentleman is an example of emotive nonsense over intellectual debate. You arse.

Actually, its an example why common sense is just that, common sense, rational and intellectual debate dicates, according to you, that it has no place while I will argue that sitting around beating to death the thoughts of so called great minds who had never done a days hard labour in their life but just sat around telling the rest of us whats right and wrong is just reinventing the wheel to meet their own political goals or what their percieve as social status.

Jean Paul Sartre jumps to mind with his ramblings. Opposed the Vietnam War and started the Russell Tribunal to highlight American war crimes yet met Castro and Che Cuevara and declared Cuevara 'Not only a intellectual but the most complete human being of our age' Could this be the same Che Cuevara who said ' The executions by firing squad are not only a necessity for the people of Cuba but also an imposition of the people' Maybe he thought up that line while sitting on the prison wall watching the executions while puffing on a havana. Care to point out where the rational and intellectual debate is hiding in this paragraph.

So you tell me why common sense has no place within rational and intellectual debate and why intellectual debate almost always refers to socialist views and everyone else is either a bigot, fascist or right wing potential unibomber.

And keep my arse out of it, pervert!!

 

[osymandus]

Actually, its an example why common sense is just that, common sense, rational and intellectual debate dicates, according to you, that it has no place while I will argue that sitting around beating to death the thoughts of so called great minds who had never done a days hard labour in their life but just sat around telling the rest of us whats right and wrong is just reinventing the wheel to meet their own political goals or what their percieve as social status.

Jean Paul Sartre jumps to mind with his ramblings. Opposed the Vietnam War and started the Russell Tribunal to highlight American war crimes yet met Castro and Che Cuevara and declared Cuevara 'Not only a intellectual but the most complete human being of our age' Could this be the same Che Cuevara who said ' The executions by firing squad are not only a necessity for the people of Cuba but also an imposition of the people' Maybe he thought up that line while sitting on the prison wall watching the executions while puffing on a havana. Care to point out where the rational and intellectual debate is hiding in this paragraph.

So you tell me why common sense has no place within rational and intellectual debate and why intellectual debate almost always refers to socialist views and everyone else is either a bigot, fascist or right wing potential unibomber.

And keep my arse out of it, pervert!!

Common sense is a name for survivalist traits with in the environment you live . Intellectual and rational debate takes these observations and verifies them via empirical method . Requiring repeatable evidence . The examples you mention here are anecdotal at best . Their not completely dismissable but Sartre was a philosopher /artist who lived in France , did exactly as you said . However your extrapolation of this is that every intellectual (which makes no sense Nikola Tesla then man regarded as engineering the 20/21st century ) dug ditches during the great recession just to make money , Albert Einstien was a clerk in a swiss office ). Common sense does not require these criteria (again we have no evidence in your example that Sartre did not have a romantic view point of Che Cuevara , or who Cuevara was talking about ? What is the context what other evidence can we show they were together and this really happened ?? ).

Common sense means vulgar knowledge , it is the moonshine of rational . Gives you a quick nasty hit . But take it in too high doses and you go blind.

Thats not what you said the other night :P