Brexit negotiations thread

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

As was said on QT last time. It's always the same. The one's that don't get their way in any decision making process are always the ones to scream, shout and stamp their feet the most. I keep an eye on what's going on in here but refrain from posting now as it's all so predictable and if I'm honest I don't feel the need. I'm confident that Brexit will happen. I'm also confident hat we'll get there in the long run and that we'll all be better off for it.

Has anything about Brexit surprised me to date? No not really. I was always fully aware of how hard the obstacles would be up until now and how difficult they're going to be going forward. What has surprised me however is the constant bleating and whining on here from the same old faces. As if any of it is going to make one iota of difference. It's not. Example, quite some time ago BoJo made a silly throw away remark about the EU could whistle for their divorce settlement and now, weeks and weeks later, the fact we are now going to pay a divorce bill (something all intelligent people knew we would have to do anyway) and he was wrong it's brought up on here and made out to be some devastating lie bigger than the Profumo affair that should kill off the government. Daft, silly and unprofessional yes. Worth crying into your Cornflakes over? No. I'm all for debate but it's not really that is it. It's just moaning and moaning about decisions that have been made that are totally out of your control. Pointless.

Come on people. Enough now. After 2019/20/21 and we're all out of jobs, the NHS has collapsed, the bins haven't been emptied for weeks and the pound in your pocket is worth about 30p then by all means come back and crow on and on to your hearts content about how you all told us so. Until then just get on with enjoying and loving life and those around you and let those that can, do. All you're doing now is making yourselves look like bitter and twisted old lefties :winking:

Oh, and a Merry Shrimper Xmas to you all. Even the Socialists :smile:

Are you referring to Nigel Farage? Obviously we know he is a moaner but his level of moaning about the Brexit stage 1 outcome today has made him the King of Moans.

You keep an eye on this thread but don't get involved. Apart from this essay. And 2nd December. And 26th November and 25th, 23rd, 19th.....Prodigal Son!

 

[Lord Football]

So what does this mean?

From what I understand we have a form of words that don't mean much and that have simply stoked a bucket load of problems (albeit for the UK Government rather than EU) to be discussed later. How the Tories handle this internally, will be interesting.

I haven't read the text, but if I understand it correctly.

There is no Ireland / N Ireland border. Therefore in order for trade to work, then the rules used in Ireland need to apply to N Ireland. It stands to reason then the same rules in N Ireland will apply to the UK. So it further stands to reason that Ireland and UK will have the same rules, ie the same one as the EU has. To take this further, if the EU wants to change the rules, then we have to - and we wont have a say in that. Jacob Nineteenth Century and Farage wont like that. Oh, and bizarrely, Donald Trump wont like it either. I doubt the WTO will either.

Generally, from the Trade perspective (and that is, after all, my thing) I think this potentially a good thing. Certainly from the Good Friday perspective, it is excellent news.

If this leads to a free trade agreement, it will mitigate much of the obvious economic issues that exist. In all honesty, given what seemingly has been agreed today, we may as well stay in the Customs Union and Single Market.

However, you could of course argue that all we have achieved is to remain on the same trading basis, without having a say in the rules and paid a cool $35bn for the privelidge. We might have. But that remains to be seen.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Are you referring to Nigel Farage? Obviously we know he is a moaner but his level of moaning about the Brexit stage 1 outcome today has made him the King of Moans.

You keep an eye on this thread but don't get involved. Apart from this essay. And 2nd December. And 26th November and 25th, 23rd, 19th.....Prodigal Son!

No, I'm referring to the constant moaners and gripers on here, as well you know but hey, didn't fit in with you're reply did it :winking:

Wow 5 posts in nearly four weeks, yeah, go me the Prodigal Son. Unlike you to have a childish dig *** but I'll let you have this one free :thumbsup:

 

[Bielzibubz]

So what does this mean?

From what I understand we have a form of words that don't mean much and that have simply stoked a bucket load of problems (albeit for the UK Government rather than EU) to be discussed later. How the Tories handle this internally, will be interesting.

I haven't read the text, but if I understand it correctly.

There is no Ireland / N Ireland border. Therefore in order for trade to work, then the rules used in Ireland need to apply to N Ireland. It stands to reason then the same rules in N Ireland will apply to the UK. So it further stands to reason that Ireland and UK will have the same rules, ie the same one as the EU has. To take this further, if the EU wants to change the rules, then we have to - and we wont have a say in that. Jacob Nineteenth Century and Farage wont like that. Oh, and bizarrely, Donald Trump wont like it either. I doubt the WTO will either.

Generally, from the Trade perspective (and that is, after all, my thing) I think this potentially a good thing. Certainly from the Good Friday perspective, it is excellent news.

If this leads to a free trade agreement, it will mitigate much of the obvious economic issues that exist. In all honesty, given what seemingly has been agreed today, we may as well stay in the Customs Union and Single Market.

However, you could of course argue that all we have achieved is to remain on the same trading basis, without having a say in the rules and paid a cool $35bn for the privelidge. We might have. But that remains to be seen.

Stay in the Customs Union and Single Market on the sole basis of the Irish issue? Yeah, righto :thumbsup:

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

No, I'm referring to the constant moaners and gripers on here, as well you know but hey, didn't fit in with you're reply did it :winking:

Wow 5 posts in nearly four weeks, yeah, go me the Prodigal Son. Unlike you to have a childish dig *** but I'll let you have this one free :thumbsup:

rather than fighting the same ol same ol on here I was more interested in the wider reaction to 'the deal part 1' - hence I was interested in Farage's moan-a-thon and the reaction to Johnson backing May's 'achievement' - I was surprised that there were pretty much no statement's of support among hundreds of replies from Leavers and Remainers. I get the impression that with May dragging her feet, talking vague soundbites and then losing all of her red lines, Davis lying to Parliament about whether impact assessments exist or not, DUP seeming to call the shots - that no one really trusts what they are doing right now.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Stay in the Customs Union and Single Market on the sole basis of the Irish issue? Yeah, righto :thumbsup:

Since May lost Cameron's majority the Irish angle does need to take president though - in order to get through Parliament. I swear the DUP would play ball if they hadn't been offered the £1bn by May - they have seen how weak she is and are playing it for all it's worth. They know they are powerful for as long as this Parliament lasts and then they are demoted again. They clearly want to grab what they can in this fire sale.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Since May lost Cameron's majority the Irish angle does need to take president though - in order to get through Parliament. I swear the DUP would play ball if they hadn't been offered the £1bn by May - they have seen how weak she is and are playing it for all it's worth. They know they are powerful for as long as this Parliament lasts and then they are demoted again. They clearly want to grab what they can in this fire sale.

No it doesn't need to take precedent. A deal has now been done and there will be no hard border. How could there ever be? The DUP have made concessions and so have the UK Government and that is how this whole process will continue. It's called negotiation. Are all parties happy? No, of course not. They all want what's best for their individual interests but each also realise that in order to reach a settlement that allows the UK to leave in 2019 they all have to make concessions on a wide variety of subjects.

The Irish border issue WAS a sticking point. However, it no longer is. We now move on to more intractable issues that need dealing with.

We don't need the Customs Union and we especially don't need the Single Market. For a truly free market economy to succeed and flourish it must be free to trade where and when it wants anywhere around the globe and also be free to set it's own tariffs and import/export duties. <<<<Opinion, not fact

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

No it doesn't need to take precedent. A deal has now been done and there will be no hard border. How could there ever be? The DUP have made concessions and so have the UK Government and that is how this whole process will continue. It's called negotiation. Are all parties happy? No, of course not. They all want what's best for their individual interests but each also realise that in order to reach a settlement that allows the UK to leave in 2019 they all have to make concessions on a wide variety of subjects.

The Irish border issue WAS a sticking point. However, it no longer is. We now move on to more intractable issues that need dealing with.

We don't need the Customs Union and we especially don't need the Single Market. For a truly free market economy to succeed and flourish it must be free to trade where and when it wants anywhere around the globe and also be free to set it's own tariffs and import/export duties. <<<<Opinion, not fact

How could there ever be a hard border? Certainly with a no deal scenario a hard border would be very likely.

Though there has been sufficient agreement to move to stage two May still sees it as 'nothing is agreed till everything is agreed - so outcome is still unknown.


What seems to have happened though is we seem to have been bumped into a situation where we pay tens of billions and still have to follow EU rules. As it stands DUP have insisted that they have the same set up as the rest of the UK and the EU have insisted that for a no border Ireland the EU trading regulations are law - now and in the future. So the implication is that when EU change certain laws we will have to change with them.


This is why people like Farage are livid - because for him this leaving seems too much like staying. And Remainers are asking why we are paying to leave when it seems so much like staying.


If it carries on along this trajectory many more people will feel the only real change is that we lose our veto on new EU law.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

No it doesn't need to take precedent. A deal has now been done and there will be no hard border. How could there ever be? The DUP have made concessions and so have the UK Government and that is how this whole process will continue. It's called negotiation. Are all parties happy? No, of course not. They all want what's best for their individual interests but each also realise that in order to reach a settlement that allows the UK to leave in 2019 they all have to make concessions on a wide variety of subjects.

The Irish border issue WAS a sticking point. However, it no longer is. We now move on to more intractable issues that need dealing with.

We don't need the Customs Union and we especially don't need the Single Market. For a truly free market economy to succeed and flourish it must be free to trade where and when it wants anywhere around the globe and also be free to set it's own tariffs and import/export duties. <<<<Opinion, not fact

Not time to crack open the champagne just yet.http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-42292302/brexit-what-still-needs-to-be-worked-out

Disagree with your opinion about not needing to be a member of the Customs Union or the Single Market.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Boris Johnson: great meeting with PM - found her totally determined that 'full alignment' means compatibility with taking back control of our money, laws and borders.


So it seems the PM and the EU have agreed to use wording that has different meaning for each side. I can see certain issues arising from that.

 

[Lord Football]

Stay in the Customs Union and Single Market on the sole basis of the Irish issue? Yeah, righto :thumbsup:

Maybe I've not worded clearly, but I don't think you've understood my post.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Maybe I've not worded clearly, but I don't think you've understood my post.

I understood it to mean that because of the Irish border issue the UK as a whole may as well negotiate a stay in the CU and SM? If that's not how it was meant then yes, I did :winking:

 

[Lord Football]

I understood it to mean that because of the Irish border issue the UK as a whole may as well negotiate a stay in the CU and SM? If that's not how it was meant then yes, I did :winking:

Right, as it happens, I didn't understand your post. Lol. Go me!!!!

There are many, many, many reasons why we should seek to stay in the SM and / or Customs Union. Ireland may be the catalyst that makes it happen. It might be "lightbulb moment" that is needed.

And, just for the record, I am coming from the factual logistical point of view rather than a remain position.


My personal view is that the thing I really understand about Brexit is international trade, so I get how important the Customs Union et al. I would be a lot more comfortable with a Brexit that gives us access to either the SM or Customs Union.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

As Dean Acheson said (back in 1962): "Great Britain has lost an Empire and has not yet found a role."

Personally, I don't think that role will ever be found outside the EU and certainly not outside the Customs Union and the Single Market.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Right, as it happens, I didn't understand your post. Lol. Go me!!!!

There are many, many, many reasons why we should seek to stay in the SM and / or Customs Union. Ireland may be the catalyst that makes it happen. It might be "lightbulb moment" that is needed.

And, just for the record, I am coming from the factual logistical point of view rather than a remain position.


My personal view is that the thing I really understand about Brexit is international trade, so I get how important the Customs Union et al. I would be a lot more confortable with a Brexit that gives us access to either the SM or Customs Union.

Well, of course, so would I. Yet, being devil's advocate and as you have suggested above, if we remain in the SM or CU, what on earth would be the point of Brexit?

 

[callan]

Well, of course, so would I. Yet, being devil's advocate and as you have suggested above, if we remain in the SM or CU, what on earth would be the point of Brexit?

Access isn't the same as staying in.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Access isn't the same as staying in.

No but getting "access" or the "benefits" of the CU and SM as Davis described it on Marr yesterday, without paying handsomely for the privilege, is going to be a difficult (not to mention costly) trick to pull off in Phase Two.

 

[Benfleet A1]

Access isn't the same as staying in.

It might as well be.

 

[callan]

No but getting "access" or the "benefits" of the CU and SM as Davis described it on Marr yesterday, without paying handsomely for the privilege, is going to be a difficult (not to mention costly) trick to pull off in Phase Two.

We already appear to be paying handsomely, unless of course you mean a contributed amount yearly for a Trade Agreement?

When you say the benefits of the Customs Union, what do you consider them to be?

 

[callan]

It might as well be.

Try telling that to countries that have access but are not members.