Brexit negotiations thread

[MK Shrimper]

It’s very much possible.

Whether it would carry the same ferocity as being denied your democratic right, is however, debatable.

If a second vote is on the table, how is that denying your democratic right in any way? I could understand it if No Brexit happened despite vote 1.

 

[Ricky Otto]

If a second vote is on the table, how is that denying your democratic right in any way? I could understand it if No Brexit happened despite vote 1.

That's how I see it as well, I would have some sympathy if we were to remain without a second vote now the picture is clearer. I wouldn't condone lawless acts but I would have sympathy. I don't think a portion of leave voters see it like that though and even if we were to remain as the result of another referendum I still think there are people who would cause civil unrest. I also don't think it is a foregone conclusion that remain would win a second referendum.

 

[Sandbach Shrimper]

I also don't think it is a foregone conclusion that remain would win a second referendum.

Far from it, I think Leave would win again, and probably by an even bigger margin. I mean, do Remoaners really think that the people who they've spent the last two and a half years insulting would now switch sides? It would depend on what the choices are on the ballot paper, though.

You know we haven't left yet, right? It'll be interesting how many of those 645744 new small businesses will still be around this time next year.

They obviously had enough confidence that the economy isn't going to crash to set up a business. This "we haven't left yet" excuse is used every time there's positive economic news, but every time there's anything bad Brexit is immediately blamed.

Anyway, this thread is just going round and round in circles - much like the Government.

 

[Lord Football]

The language needs to change. I see Farage calling MPs "the enemy" and has a "Brexit Betrayal Bus" (yes, a ****ing bus, you'd think we'd had enough of buses). Some of the language during the debate in the HoC was appalling and hostile. We live in a world where the press label judges "enemy of the people" and behave like Ripper era Penny Dreadfuls. We need this to stop.

We've find ourselves, as a nation, where we are openly talking about people taking to the streets and civil unrest and our default position is to throw names or think you've been called one.

Just because someone does not want Brexit it does not make them a traitor in much the same way someone who wants to leave is not a racist or stupid.

 

[Ricky Otto]

Far from it, I think Leave would win again, and probably by an even bigger margin. I mean, do Remoaners really think that the people who they've spent the last two and a half years insulting would now switch sides? It would depend on what the choices are on the ballot paper, though.

there was nothing in it last time and I don't think they'll be a lot in it if it were to happen again. I read about a guy who in the US who created a second social media persona to get balance and a better idea of what is really happening and not just the parts you want to hear. Everything you like and comment on dictates what you see so if you have a certain standpoint then you are really only being exposed to articles and opinion that reinforce that standpoint and can give you a warped perspective on what the real situation is, I would certainly say there are one or two on both sides on this board that fall foul of this and have unwavering confidence in things they really shouldn't. It's not just social media, its mainstream media, if you are pro leave you are more likely to watch sky news than channel 4 news, both have clear bias. I make an effort to sit through and look at stuff I strongly disagree with and I don't see much movement in peoples choices. Leave will have you believe that their supporters are unwavering and that some remainers have even moved to their cause because their eyes have been opened to how undemocratic it all is and how the EU have bullied us in negotiations. Remain will have you believe that not all remain voters turned out 1st time because the news was reporting it as a foregone conclusion, that some leave voters don't think the deal on the table or no deal represents what they were promised and reluctantly prefer remain now, and also that some industrial towns that voted leave have seen planned job cuts and have changed their minds.

It all depends on which of those arguments you think are credible and how much of a sway in numbers they have. I think it would be very close again

 

[MK Shrimper]

The language needs to change. I see Farage calling MPs "the enemy" and has a "Brexit Betrayal Bus" (yes, a ****ing bus, you'd think we'd had enough of buses). Some of the language during the debate in the HoC was appalling and hostile. We live in a world where the press label judges "enemy of the people" and behave like Ripper era Penny Dreadfuls. We need this to stop.

We've find ourselves, as a nation, where we are openly talking about people taking to the streets and civil unrest and our default position is to throw names or think you've been called one.

Just because someone does not want Brexit it does not make them a traitor in much the same way someone who wants to leave is not a racist or stupid.

The genie is out of the bottle LF and I really do not know where the country goes from here.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Far from it, I think Leave would win again and probably by an even bigger margin. I mean, do Remoaners really think that the people who they've spent the last two and a half years insulting would now switch sides? It would depend on what the choices are on the ballot paper, though.



They obviously had enough confidence that the economy isn't going to crash to set up a business. This "we haven't left yet" excuse is used every time there's positive economic news, but every time there's anything bad Brexit is immediately blamed.

Anyway, this thread is just going round and round in circles - much like the Government.

I think you are quite possibly right and that is why I find it strange that most 'leavers' are implacably against a second vote. (Yes, I know we already voted on the issue in 2016!) Consider the benefits of a second vote. If, as you expect, you win, it would give you solid legitimacy on a clear course of action. People would now vote on facts rather than on lies and vague promises. More importantly, it could help unifying the country. Remainers like me would have to accept the clear and final decision of the people, being totally aware of the consequences for what they were voting, there would be no reason for civil unrest

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Get your ****ing space bar working will you .......

Now, where was I. Oh yeah. If Brexit doesn't happen then by God you'll see power lying in the streets of the UK.

Ha! Switched to the laptop yesterday, since we're in France until Sunday.

Must have been a long time since you were out on the streets.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

That's how I see it as well, I would have some sympathy if we were to remain without a second vote now the picture is clearer. I wouldn't condone lawless acts but I would have sympathy. I don't think a portion of leave voters see it like that though and even if we were to remain as the result of another referendum I still think there are people who would cause civil unrest. I also don't think it is a foregone conclusion that remain would win a second referendum.

According to the latest opinion poll there is now a 12% majority in favour of Remain in the UK ,The largest percentage since 2016.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Far from it, I think Leave would win again, and probably by an even bigger margin. I mean, do Remoaners really think that the people who they've spent the last two and a half years insulting would now switch sides? It would depend on what the choices are on the ballot paper, though.



They obviously had enough confidence that the economy isn't going to crash to set up a business. This "we haven't left yet" excuse is used every time there's positive economic news, but every time there's anything bad Brexit is immediately blamed.

Anyway, this thread is just going round and round in circles - much like the Government.

Absolutely wrong. They've already showed that more people are switching from leave to remain than the other way around. Most by saying this is not the deal we voted for, or that they were lied to, or that they are much more informed now, etc etc The experts said it will be quite a swing and remain would win.

 

[Ricky Otto]

According to the latest opinion poll there is now a 12% majority in favour of Remain in the UK ,The largest percentage since 2016.

and what did the opinion poll say before the last referendum

 

[GBJ]

So what's going to happen? Civil war? Besides, if a second vote is on the table, how is that denying your democratic right in any way?

It’s anyones guess as to what action will be taken. Civil war seems unlikely. I’d imagine it’d be akin to the riots we saw up and down the country back in 2011, which were (and probably will be) exacerbated by people jumping on the bandwagon.

The referendum was put to the people, as an absolute. If we voted to leave, we would leave. Democratically, that’s what should happen, whether it’s the right move or not. If you’re going to re-run it, you might aswell pretend the first one never happened. Is that democratic?

 

[MK Shrimper]

It’s anyones guess as to what action will be taken. Civil war seems unlikely. I’d imagine it’d be akin to the riots we saw up and down the country back in 2011, which were (and probably will be) exacerbated by people jumping on the bandwagon.

The referendum was put to the people, as an absolute. If we voted to leave, we would leave. Democratically, that’s what should happen, whether it’s the right move or not. If you’re going to re-run it, you might aswell pretend the first one never happened. Is that democratic?

How is more democracy less democratic?

 

[GBJ]

If a second vote is on the table, how is that denying your democratic right in any way? I could understand it if No Brexit happened despite vote 1.

It never was on the table though. As I mentioned in my previous post, When Cameron announced the referendum, it was designed to be a definitive. No second chances on the decision, what the people voted for, is what the people would get.

Putting it on the table now, whitewashes the first vote & renders it undemocratic.

 

[GBJ]

How is more democracy less democratic?

It’s almost aristocratic, rather than democratic.

The people had their say, and the ruling class are effectively saying, sorry, try again, because we know better than you. That’s not how democracy works.

We effectively give these people employment, and in return they work on our behalf. If the majority of the country demand they do something, then as bonkers as it may be, they are duty bound to enact it. That is democracy

 

[MK Shrimper]

It’s almost aristocratic, rather than democratic.

The people had their say, and the ruling class are effectively saying, sorry, try again, because we know better than you. That’s not how democracy works.

We effectively give these people employment, and in return they work on our behalf. If the majority of the country demand they do something, then as bonkers as it may be, they are duty bound to enact it. That is democracy

It really isn't. It's democracy - rich & poor can have their say again. There's plenty of the ruling classes desperate to cut all ties with the EU.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

It’s almost aristocratic, rather than democratic.

The people had their say, and the ruling class are effectively saying, sorry, try again, because we know better than you. That’s not how democracy works.

We effectively give these people employment, and in return they work on our behalf. If the majority of the country demand they do something, then as bonkers as it may be, they are duty bound to enact it. That is democracy

Is democracy a one off event for you? Are you saying that a decision once made, cannot be reconsidered.............in two years, ten years or a hundred years. that seems a strange idea of democracy to me.

 

[GBJ]

It really isn't. It's democracy - rich & poor can have their say again

They had their say already. or at least had the opportunity to. Now that say must be enacted, regardless of right or wrong.

Is democracy a one off event for you? Are you saying that a decision once made, cannot be reconsidered.............in two years, ten years or a hundred years. that seems a strange idea of democracy to me.

But the original decision has not yet been implemented. We haven’t left the EU yet.

I could fully understand a demand for a second vote at some point down the line, but you can’t just skip it, you have to respect what people originally voted for.

In an earlier post you said that if Leave won a second vote, you remainers would have to accept it... A) what is it about the first one that you can’t accept? B) If you can’t accept the first one, what guarantee is there that this remainers won’t clamour for a third vote?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

And what if remain wins? Will leave voters be entitled to campaign for an immediate further vote? If multiple votes and instant disregard of referendum results is de rigeur where does that leave Scottish independence? Just perhaps that is why they are so keen on a second referendum on Brexit because it will justify another vote on independence? But what if they got a second vote on that too? If they won, would we need to honour it? Perhaps people didnt know what they were voting for? Perhaps a general election after all then. Oh, but wait - that involves voting too! What shall we do? It's so confusing. Perhaps we should just vote once and then get on with things. Now, there's a thought.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

a poll conducted by YouGov of more than 1,000 voters on Wednesday found 56% would now vote to stay in the EU, against 44% who want to leave.

Exactly the same proportion of voters said they wanted a second EU referendum – three points higher than recorded in a similar poll before Christmas. Backing for a so-called people’s vote among Labour supporters stood at 78%.

The remain lead was extended further when respondents were asked to compare it to May’s withdrawal agreement or the option of leaving the EU without a deal.

Against the prime minister’s deal, remain led by 65% to 35%, while against no-deal was 59% to 41% in favour of staying in the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ring-of-resignations-if-he-backs-peoples-vote


That's fairly clear I think.