Brexit negotiations thread

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Two very good reads/listens.

Adults in the Room - My Battle With Europes Deep Establishment.

In Adults in the Room, Yanis Varoufakis exposes the shocking reality of how power is wielded behind the scenes at the EU - and argues that only radical reform can save it from collapse.

Yanis Varoufakis became globally famous when was elected finance minister of Greece with a specific mandate to say no to the EU: to reject the forced loans and crushing austerity forced upon his country by the Eurozone.

The negotiations that ensued became one of the most spectacular and controversial battles in economic history. But no one actually knows what went on because Eurogroup discussions are held in secret. In this no-holds-barred account, Varoufakis reveals all: an extraordinary tale of brinkmanship and backstabbing that will shake the economic establishment to its foundations.

The future of the EU now hangs in the balance. As Varoufakis argues, the only way it can survive is if the truth is known, ushering in a new era of radical transparency and accountability in Brussels. Adults in the Room is an urgent wake-up call to renew European democracy before it is too late.

and

And the Weak Suffer What They Must - Europe, Austerity and the Threat to Global Stability

In 2008, the universe of Western finance outgrew planet Earth. When Wall Street imploded, a death embrace between insolvent banks and bankrupt states consumed Europe. Half a dozen national economies imploded, and several more came close. But the storm is far from over....

From the aftermath of the Second World War to the present, Varoufakis recounts how the eurozone emerged not as a route to shared prosperity but as a pyramid scheme of debt with countries such as Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain at its bottom. Its woeful design ensured that collapse would be inevitable and catastrophic.

But since the hurricane landed, Europe's leaders have chosen a ****tail of more debt and harsh austerity rather than reform, ensuring that the weakest citizens of the weakest nations pay the price for the bankers' mistakes while doing nothing to prevent the next collapse. Instead, the principle of the greatest austerity for those suffering the greatest recessions has led to a resurgence of racist extremism. Once more Europe is a potent threat to global stability.

Drawing on the personal experience of his own negotiations with the eurozone's financiers and offering concrete policies and alternatives, Varoufakis shows how we concocted this mess and how we can get out of it. And the Weak Suffer What They Must? reminds us of our history in order to save European capitalism from itself.

Just give them a go. Some might actually learn something...

I haven't read his book but from what you quote, I would have sympathy with some of his ideas. The unregulated banking system, IMO, is the root cause of most of today"s problems..........austerity, Brexit and the rise of the popular right. We should have dealt with bankers as they did in Iceland...........put them in jail. Sickeningly, IIUC, many of those who caused the crash in 2008 are still in control of the system and could be heading us for another crash.......maybe bigger than the last one. I've always believed that the EU is in desperate need of reform. The UK, with a consciencious government could have been a driving force for that kind of change. Difficult to change rules when you're no longer a member of the club. When you mention Varoufakis, I understand he would favour leaving the Euro? If they did, I'm not sure how it would work out for Greece, I imagine, at least initially, it could be very painful. You would also have thought he'd be singing the praises of 'Grexit'...........is that not the case? If it isn't, then why not???
This article, a little dated but still relevant offers another viewpoint from a Greek perspective. Not one I suppose you'd agree with.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-support-uk-eu-european-economy-a8514701.html

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

what's undemocratic about asking the public to vote again after it's been clearly demonstrated by the current government that the brexit (illegally) promised by the leave campaign isn't feasible?

Both sides lied through their teeth. Both sides wildly exaggerated the downside to the other side winning. Both sides broke the referendum rules. You can't vote until you win.

 

[Member]

Both sides lied through their teeth. Both sides wildly exaggerated the downside to the other side winning. Both sides broke the referendum rules. You can't vote until you win.

only the leave campaign to date has been found to have acted illegally

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

only the leave campaign to date has been found to have acted illegally

Nope, both sides.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

The Lib Dems were slapped with an £18,000 penalty for failing to submit correct spending returns for some £80,000 of funds it spent urging voters not to support Leave.

Official Remain campaign Britain Stronger in Europe - since re-named Open Britain - was also hit with a £1,250 fine for incorrect spending returns.

 

[Member]

Nope, both sides.

a big difference between a few grand in terms of missing receipts (that didn't result in criminal investigation), versus nearly £500,000 of fraud that was referred to the police.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

No it was not. You asked and you got. The fact it highlights all the problems with muslims you deny wont make them go away...…44% of people in prison for serious crimes are muslim.

So your first set of figures were from memory, and you had now realise they were inaccurate, and now you are delving into figures that are at least 10 years old. Surely we can use data more relevant than that. A lot has changed in 10+ years.

According to the Chancellor we have no unemployment, so all of your Muslim unemployment figures are instantly blown out of the water.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

a big difference between a few grands in terms of missing receipts (that didn't result in criminal investigation), versus nearly £500,000 of fraud that was referred to the police.

So you agree, they both acted illegally? Despite you saying that only leave did.

 

[rigsby]

So your first set of figures were from memory, and you had now realise they were inaccurate, and now you are delving into figures that are at least 10 years old. Surely we can use data more relevant than that. A lot has changed in 10+ years.

According to the Chancellor we have no unemployment, so all of your Muslim unemployment figures are instantly blown out of the water.

The figurers are less than 10 years old but of course you know this. Its your standard practice of a straw man argument when you have no where to go.

 

[Bielzibubz]

I haven't read his book but from what you quote, I would have sympathy with some of his ideas. The unregulated banking system, IMO, is the root cause of most of today"s problems..........austerity, Brexit and the rise of the popular right. We should have dealt with bankers as they did in Iceland...........put them in jail. Sickeningly, IIUC, many of those who caused the crash in 2008 are still in control of the system and could be heading us for another crash.......maybe bigger than the last one. I've always believed that the EU is in desperate need of reform. The UK, with a consciencious government could have been a driving force for that kind of change. Difficult to change rules when you're no longer a member of the club. When you mention Varoufakis, I understand he would favour leaving the Euro? If they did, I'm not sure how it would work out for Greece, I imagine, at least initially, it could be very painful. You would also have thought he'd be singing the praises of 'Grexit'...........is that not the case? If it isn't, then why not???
This article, a little dated but still relevant offers another viewpoint from a Greek perspective. Not one I suppose you'd agree with.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-support-uk-eu-european-economy-a8514701.html

And there in lies one of the fundamental reasons why we have Brexit now. The EU has proven beyond any reasonable doubt it is totally incapable of any kind of meaningful reform and change and no British government of the last 40 years has wanted to push for any kind of reform or change because whether Labour, Tory or Coalition, they're all feeding from the same corrupt trough and that wouldn't have changed had we decided to remain.

Change on the scale required would have mean a fundamental root and branch change in not only the way in which it does things but also a sea change in its overall end game and how it gets there. Never, ever ever going to happen.

 

[Member]

So you agree, they both acted illegally? Despite you saying that only leave did.

no

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

no

Did you forget about David Cameron's illegal 14 page glossy booklet put through every home at the cost of 9 Million of tax payers money.
The Electoral Commission had contacted the Government with concerns over the £9 Million leaflets being sent out to British homes explaining the Government’s case for staying in Europe.
Blundering Whitehall officials failed to include an 'imprint' on the £9 Million leaflets setting out the name and address of the publisher – in this case HM Stationery Office.
It is against the law to send out election material without an imprint, punishable with a fine for each copy sent out. In this case, 27 Million of the leaflets had at that time been printed.
It also broke EU biased campaigning rules.

 

[blues exile]

Two of the directors of Seaborne, Glenn Dudley and J-M Copyans were involved with myferrylink, which ceased operations in 2015, according to a post on bfenthusiasts.com. A checkered history indeed.

Seaborne has the same registered address as Campbell, Johnston, Clark who are maritime lawyers. One of their partners is Mark Bamford, the same name as the man who just happens to be a director of JCB, the largest donor to the Tories.

 

[Napster]

Seaborne has the same registered address as Campbell, Johnston, Clark who are maritime lawyers. One of their partners is Mark Bamford, who just happens to be a director of JCB, the largest donor to the Tories. Who would have thought it!

Different Bamford apparently

 

[blues exile]

Different Bamford apparently

Not the younger brother of JCB chairman?

 

[Napster]

Not the younger brother of JCB chairman?

Apparently not according to Twitter

 

[dcblue]

The government called an election 3 years early after bringing in 5 year fixed Parliament, paid £1 billion out of taxpayer funds to secure the backing of 10 DUP MPs whose party policies are abhorrent to most of the rest of the UK, have ignored being found in contempt of Parliament - the first government ever to face that, have brushed off losing 3 Parliamentary votes in one day, have had 5 days of debate on the biggest Parliamentary vote in decades and then pulled the vote at the last minute.

If this government can't deliver Brexit I don't think it's deliberate I think it's incompetence, but we can be sure they have no respect for democracy whether Brexit happens or not.

I agree the government is incompetent, but I would suggest it is the whole of parliament which is, to say the least, incompetent.
The Tory campaign, in that quickly called election, was so bad it was like they wanted to lose the election. However Labour couldn't perform any better. As I've said before, neither party wants to lead us through brexit because they don't want to be seen as betraying democracy by delivering a remain deal. Both parties would go for a second referendum if they were confident of getting the right result. The only way they can do that is by delaying any leaving for as long as possible, but at the same time trying to convince leavers they are all working to get the best deal possible.
We've had over two years of pantomime, so far, pretending to follow the democratic result. Whatever happens now I think that any trust in our parliament has been lost by leavers and remainers alike.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

So, just to clarify. You'd rather believe the words written by a European think tank, bought and paid for by the EU, and an Irish drama critic and contributor to the Irish Times rather than an economist, academic and politician (national finance minister) who's had first hand experience and intimate knowledge of dealing with those in power at the EU?

Sums up your whole argument quite nicely

While we're on the subject of veroufakis, I can think of at least three reasons why he's not a good advocate of the cause you espouse 1.He's pro-EU ((just not a fan of the Troika under Germany's leadership) 2..As his recent book on Capitalism shows he's a lefty ·.3.As his many TV appearences show he thinks Brexit is a bad idea for the UK.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...itons-seeking-irish-passports-ahead-of-brexit

I see the number of Brits.appling for an Irish passport has doubled to record numbers since the Brexit process began.Anecdotal I know. but I know 3 long term residents here (all born in in the UK) who've taken out Irish citizenship in the last 12 months or so.Frankly if I had any Irish parents or grandparents I'd do the same myself.

 

[Swiss Tony]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...itons-seeking-irish-passports-ahead-of-brexit

I see the number of Brits.appling for an Irish passport has doubled to record numbers since the Brexit process began.Anecdotal I know. but I know 3 long term residents here (all born in in the UK) who've taken out Irish citizenship in the last 12 months or so.Frankly if I had any Irish parents or grandparents I'd do the same myself.

Can't you tell them you went on holiday there once,it might work