Brexit negotiations thread

[blues exile]

Any leader who does not keep in step is punished, ie Greece, Spain, Italy and Hungary to name a few. The EU answer is greater power to the council and less to national governments. Then there will be the EU army to keep control.
However the main divisions are with the populations, not the politicians, as is evident in this country.
May couldn't drive a wedge through our defence, never mind the EU.

If you belong to a club you play by its rules. If you decide to leave it, you can't expect to retain any of the benefits of membership.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I was thinking we may be able to enter into the Christmas festivities and put Brexit on the back burner for a week or two. Well, two interesting things have emerged which are, in my view, worth bringing up.
Early Friday morning, with a little bit of problem sleeping, I tuned into 'up all night' on radio5 live. It was around 2h30am that they had a Brexit podcast featuring bbc political and european correspondents. I think it was Katya Adler (although I was half asleep!) who suggested that a possible response to a failure to support May's deal could be a snap election where ERG members not supporting the party line would face de-selection. I don't even know how practical this would be but it could explain JRM's sudden renewed warmth for his party leader!
The second event was part of an 'exclusive' interview Corbyn gave to the Guardian........

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu

I suppose one should welcome the fact that he appears to have, at least, taken one foot off the fence. There must surely be more belief in pigs flying than any ability in him renogiating a new deal at this late stage. At least he has come out with a position on Brexit which, in the end, is roughly the same as the Tories and one which is believable for him, having been a Eurosceptic for the major part of his political life. It (possibly?......initially?) will go down well with voters in the Labour heartlands (rust belt) but it remains to be seen how it will sit with the majority of his pro-remain MP's and activist's.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

A colleague of mine (at the British council) posted this up on his FB page.Don't normally agree with him as he's very right wing but right here, IMO.

"Let it be taken it as axiomatic that the EU will not reopen negotiations on the terms on which the UK may leave the EU

Therefore:

* The UK parliament can vote to accept the agreement reached between the EU and the UK, already approved by the Commission and HMG.

or

* The UK parliament can vote to revoke its instruction to HMG to trigger article 50. Then May can revoke the notification in accordance with the recent ECJ ruling and the country will be back where it was in June 2016.

If parliament fails to act, the UK will leave on 29 March with no agreement.

Another possibility is that May might apply to the EU for an extension of the A50 period in order to hold a referendum. If the EU agrees (which is not certain), a referendum can be held. It can, logically, only consider the three possibilities that I have described above, and the EU might wish to know the wording of the question(s) and the arrangements for the referendum before giving permission.

That is where the UK is."

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Any leader who does not keep in step is punished, ie Greece, Spain, Italy and Hungary to name a few. The EU answer is greater power to the council and less to national governments. Then there will be the EU army to keep control.
However the main divisions are with the populations, not the politicians, as is evident in this country.
May couldn't drive a wedge through our defence, never mind the EU.

On these topics, you might be interested in Pablo Iglesias's,(the leader of Podemos) interview with.Paul Mason.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I was thinking we may be able to enter into the Christmas festivities and put Brexit on the back burner for a week or two. Well, two interesting things have emerged which are, in my view, worth bringing up.
Early Friday morning, with a little bit of problem sleeping, I tuned into 'up all night' on radio5 live. It was around 2h30am that they had a Brexit podcast featuring bbc political and european correspondents. I think it was Katya Adler (although I was half asleep!) who suggested that a possible response to a failure to support May's deal could be a snap election where ERG members not supporting the party line would face de-selection. I don't even know how practical this would be but it could explain JRM's sudden renewed warmth for his party leader!
The second event was part of an 'exclusive' interview Corbyn gave to the Guardian........

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu

I suppose one should welcome the fact that he appears to have, at least, taken one foot off the fence. There must surely be more belief in pigs flying than any ability in him renogiating a new deal at this late stage. At least he has come out with a position on Brexit which, in the end, is roughly the same as the Tories and one which is believable for him, having been a Eurosceptic for the major part of his political life. It (possibly?......initially?) will go down well with voters in the Labour heartlands (rust belt) but it remains to be seen how it will sit with the majority of his pro-remain MP's and activist's.

I very much doubt JRM fears deselection. He has a big personal following and is in a safe seat. Deselecting him would surely up the Tory civil war a few notches.

You are an intelligent man and for you to say that Corbyn's policy on Brexit is roughly the same as the Tories I assume is just you venting frustration rather than being anywhere near what you actually think. If that were the case May's deal would have already sailed through Parliament with Labour support. It hasn't.

From the Guardian article: "..it would be a matter for the party to decide what the policy would be.."

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

A colleague of mine (at the British council) posted this up on his FB page.Don't normally agree with him as he's very right wing but right here, IMO.

"Let it be taken it as axiomatic that the EU will not reopen negotiations on the terms on which the UK may leave the EU

Therefore:

* The UK parliament can vote to accept the agreement reached between the EU and the UK, already approved by the Commission and HMG.

or

* The UK parliament can vote to revoke its instruction to HMG to trigger article 50. Then May can revoke the notification in accordance with the recent ECJ ruling and the country will be back where it was in June 2016.

If parliament fails to act, the UK will leave on 29 March with no agreement.

Another possibility is that May might apply to the EU for an extension of the A50 period in order to hold a referendum. If the EU agrees (which is not certain), a referendum can be held. It can, logically, only consider the three possibilities that I have described above, and the EU might wish to know the wording of the question(s) and the arrangements for the referendum before giving permission.

That is where the UK is."

Yes Barna, I think that sums the mess up pretty well. It's worth reiterating that point about it not being certain the EU will allow us an extension to hold a referendum (IIUC all 27 have to agree). there are some, led my Mr Macron(?) who would be, in part, pleased to see the back of the British and their demands. He has a difficult enough job trying to bring about what he believes to be, the necessary reforms to the EU, without the presence of another country with, at the best, a considerably large rump of Eurosceptics.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I very much doubt JRM fears deselection. He has a big personal following and is in a safe seat. Deselecting him would surely up the Tory civil war a few notches.

You are an intelligent man and for you to say that Corbyn's policy on Brexit is roughly the same as the Tories I assume is just you venting frustration rather than being anywhere near what you actually think. If that were the case May's deal would have already sailed through Parliament with Labour support. It hasn't.

From the Guardian article: "..it would be a matter for the party to decide what the policy would be.."

You're quite right about Labour's position on Brexit being very different to that of the Tories (also on Yogi being "an intelligent man" ). As far as the former point is concerned, Paul Mason makes some good arguments in that interview with Pablo Iglesias that I linked to.Basically he suggests that Labour deliberately opted to not become a remain party that would appeal only to the coffee bar fraternity and lose its own working class base (especially in the Midlands and the North) in the process, in favour of delivering a "social democratic" Brexit,which would be the least damaging possible,not only in terms of reducing the economic costs involved but also of fighting for the retention of hard won social and democratic rights,resulting from 45 years of EU membership.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I very much doubt JRM fears deselection. He has a big personal following and is in a safe seat. Deselecting him would surely up the Tory civil war a few notches.

You are an intelligent man and for you to say that Corbyn's policy on Brexit is roughly the same as the Tories I assume is just you venting frustration rather than being anywhere near what you actually think. If that were the case May's deal would have already sailed through Parliament with Labour support. It hasn't.

From the Guardian article: "..it would be a matter for the party to decide what the policy would be.."

Surely, whatever varnish you want to put on it, the result is the same. Mr Corbyn, contrary to the majority of MP's and activists is of the same belief as May, that Brexit has to be seen through without any new consultation. You also as an intelligent man (I bet people have difficulty getting rid of you when you're on the doorstep canvassing!), understand there will be no further negotiation. Even if there was, any 'better deal' would require compromising the real spirit and meaning of Brexit.
Right..............................I'm 'off' to the game. UTB!

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46658335

General election in February anyone?

 

[MK Shrimper]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46658335

General election in February anyone?

One that Labour won't win. Corbyn has just made a catastrophic error - he's lost the votes of millions, me incuded. I'm now voting Green.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46658335

General election in February anyone?

When questioned over the stance Labour would take were a referendum to take place, he said: "It would be a matter for the party to decide what the policy would be.

"But my proposal at this moment is that we go forward, trying to get a customs union with the EU, in which we would be able to be proper trading partners."

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

You're quite right about Labour's position on Brexit being very different to that of the Tories (also on Yogi being "an intelligent man" ). As far as the former point is concerned, Paul Mason makes some good arguments in that interview with Pablo Iglesias that I linked to.Basically he suggests that Labour deliberately opted to not become a remain party that would appeal only to the coffee bar fraternity and lose its own working class base (especially in the Midlands and the North) in the process, in favour of delivering a "social democratic" Brexit,which would be the least damaging possible,not only in terms of reducing the economic costs involved but also of fighting for the retention of hard won social and democratic rights,resulting from 45 years of EU membership.

Oh no he's not! ............and I'm far from the only one who thinks so.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...n-jeremy-corbyn-pledge-to-push-on-with-brexit

As MK said, a grave error by Corbyn............................and flattery will get you nowhere!

 

[Bielzibubz]

A catastrophic error in implementing the will of the public? How do you work that one out exactly?

So, let me get this straight. You are prepared to see democracy turned on its head because you believe the the outcome of a referendum is wrong. It's as simple as that. You don't agree with it therefore it shouldn't happen. Am I right in that assessment?

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

A catastrophic error in implementing the will of the public? How do you work that one out exactly?

So, let me get this straight. You are prepared to see democracy turned on its head because you believe the the outcome of a referendum is wrong. It's as simple as that. You don't agree with it therefore it shouldn't happen. Am I right in that assessment?

Not exactly! We all seem to be repeating our own, well played, records here. My record is....... (In brief) If the Brexit we were promised, had any remote resemblence to that which looks like being delivered, (I still wouldn't be happy). but I wouldn't be able to complain that much..........but it DOESN'T. This b*****d of a deal, now it is well defined, should get the confirmation of the people. If it does, you'll hear no more complaints from me.................surely that's democracy?

 

[Bielzibubz]

Not exactly! We all seem to be repeating our own, well played, records here. My record is....... (In brief) If the Brexit we were promised, had any remote resemblence to that which looks like being delivered, (I still wouldn't be happy). but I wouldn't be able to complain that much..........but it DOESN'T. This b*****d of a deal, now it is well defined, should get the confirmation of the people. If it does, you'll hear no more complaints from me.................surely that's democracy?

Thank you for that reply YBUTC. My question was directed at MK really as that was exactly what he seemed to be saying in the last post he made.

I'm ****ed at the complete hash TM has made of this. I wish she'd gone into the negotiations with the intent of getting the best deal for the UK but that's clearly not what she's done.

What I want now is just to get out as soon as possible and if that means a no deal exit then so be it because no matter what is put before the people now it will be the same lies and spin from both sides.

On the referendum paper it was a simple choice between in and out. That was it. It was down to each individual to do their own homework, to work out what, where and when. To decide who and what to believe. That's all that was asked and the people voted to leave. They didn't vote to leave with this or that certain deal in place. They voted to leave and we voted to trust our politicians to get us out the best way they can. The fact certain conditions haven't been met in that deal to please everyone is neither here nor there.

We voted to leave and we must leave. That's democracy for you. Like it or lump it that's the way it is.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

The day she called a GE and completely screwed it up was the day Brexit died IMO. I have never seen such a dire performance from a "leader" with a huge lead in the polls fudge it so well. By all accounts she offered to resign the day after the result. The tory party will rue that day they didn't take her up on her offer and get a leader in who actually believed in the task in hand.
Whatever we are likely to end up with certainly isn't what I thought I was voting for. I know talk is cheap but I'm serious when I say that it has made me think long and hard whether I will vote again. I can't be the only one who thinks this way.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Thank you for that reply YBUTC. My question was directed at MK really as that was exactly what he seemed to be saying in the last post he made.

I'm ****ed at the complete hash TM has made of this. I wish she'd gone into the negotiations with the intent of getting the best deal for the UK but that's clearly not what she's done.

What I want now is just to get out as soon as possible and if that means a no deal exit then so be it because no matter what is put before the people now it will be the same lies and spin from both sides.

On the referendum paper it was a simple choice between in and out. That was it. It was down to each individual to do their own homework, to work out what, where and when. To decide who and what to believe. That's all that was asked and the people voted to leave. They didn't vote to leave with this or that certain deal in place. They voted to leave and we voted to trust our politicians to get us out the best way they can. The fact certain conditions haven't been met in that deal to please everyone is neither here nor there.

We voted to leave and we must leave. That's democracy for you. Like it or lump it that's the way it is.

The problem with like it or lump it is that May's deal is the one there for you to like or lump.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

The day she called a GE and completely screwed it up was the day Brexit died IMO. I have never seen such a dire performance from a "leader" with a huge lead in the polls fudge it so well. By all accounts she offered to resign the day after the result. The tory party will rue that day they didn't take her up on her offer and get a leader in who actually believed in the task in hand.
Whatever we are likely to end up with certainly isn't what I thought I was voting for. I know talk is cheap but I'm serious when I say that it has made me think long and hard whether I will vote again. I can't be the only one who thinks this way.

Labour's performance in that 2017 general election,under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, was the main reason I renewed my membership of the Labour party (having last been a a member many years ago) and also joined Momentum.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Labour's performance in that 2017 general election,under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, was the main reason I renewed my membership of the Labour party (having last been a a member many years ago) and also joined Momentum.

He won't win the next. He's betrayed 90% of Labour voters.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

He won't win the next. He's betrayed 90% of Labour voters.

Please have a look at that Paul Mason interview I linked to.PS:-JC didn't actually win in 2017.