Brexit negotiations thread

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I've said it before Yogi, Tory & Labour remainers need to come together with the Lib Dems, SNP & Greens as a cross-party group to get us out of this mess.

They will to vote down May's deal when she eventually stops running down the clock and presents it to Parliament. Unfortunately no sign that Tory MPs will back a no confidence vote in the government. When that vote is held it's more likely that DUP or even ERG would vote against May's government. If Tory Remainers want to join a consensus they would get Labour to back PV in exchange for a GE. If they are not prepared to do that then there is no cross party consensus. Soubry and Clarke and the guy who voted against his own amendment have a chance to do something bold - PV for GE, it's in their hands.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

It's not because I have any pathological dislike for Labour that I post the comment below. Indeed, I should feel far more confortable with the prospect of a Labour government than the present awful and incompetent shower. Yet, I don't have faith in the opposition and that is no more clearly exemplified than by their approach to Brexit. If the article below had been written by a journalist from the Express, Mail, Telegraph or Times, one would see it as par for the course and move on. The only trouble is that it was written by Andrew Rawnsley and if the Observer/Guardian can't be classed as 'Labour leaning' ...........who can? In fact the whole article when refering to Labour, is even more damning than the piece I quote.

"There may be all sorts of complicated explanations for Labour’s failure, but I think the root cause is pretty simple. The party’s leadership has been rumbled. Labour’s own version of fantasy Brexit has been to pretend that it could negotiate a deal that gave Britain all the benefits of EU membership from the outside. The voters aren’t buying this bogus prospectus. Despite it all, the public trusts Mr Corbyn with Brexit even less than it trusts Mrs May. People can see that the Labour leadership obsesses about Brexit process questions because it doesn’t want to grip the issues of principle. The endless ducking and diving about when they might call a no-confidence vote against the government makes Labour look like opportunists desperately hoping to luck into office on the back of Brexit turmoil rather than a party with the national interest at heart. You can’t keep demanding that the Tories “make way” for Labour, the daily mantra of Mr Corbyn and his drones, and then never trigger the only mechanism for making that happen. At the heart of it is Labour’s continuing refusal to come clean about whether it will or will not support another referendum. What has always smelled of unprincipled tactical prevarication now reeks of a refusal to be honest with the electorate."

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...es-betrayed-britain-lurches-towards-the-abyss

' if the Observer/Guardian can't be classed as 'Labour leaning' ...........who can?'
You make a good point. Pretty much no one.
How often do you hear 'Labour should be 20 points ahead of this shower'. But the reality is with the entire media against them it's amazing Labour got 40% not that they aren't on more. Many Guardian writers are as anti Labour as the Telegraph these days. Nick Cohen in particular, but the article you have posted is a good example.

https://theguardian.fivefilters.org/

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

There was an interesting suggestion from Andrew Marr to Liam Fox on Marr this am (not Fox's idea as suggested on C4 news this pm), to the effect that MP's should have a free vote when it comes to voting on the "meaningful vote".Fox said it hadn't been discussed in Cabinet but it's not really a bad idea for either of the two major parties.Older Zoners might remember, (as I've said before), that H.Wilson gave the PLP a free vote on Heath's enabling legislation for the first referendum back in the day.What is certainly clear, is that there needs to be some creative thinking by both the Tories and Labour to get out of the present impasse.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46584654

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

' if the Observer/Guardian can't be classed as 'Labour leaning' ...........who can?'
You make a good point. Pretty much no one.
How often do you hear 'Labour should be 20 points ahead of this shower'. But the reality is with the entire media against them it's amazing Labour got 40% not that they aren't on more. Many Guardian writers are as anti Labour as the Telegraph these days. Nick Cohen in particular, but the article you have posted is a good example.

https://theguardian.fivefilters.org/

Perhaps that needs a little qualification. Maybe the Guardian journalists you mentioned and others, are not so much anti-Labour but anti the direction the present Labour Party has taken itself? Here surely is the conundrum for the party. The more it moves to the left the greater the chance of picking up disgruntled (anti-establishment?), unrepresented voters. On the other hand it then becomes far less appealing to it's middle-ground (Guardian writing?) supporters. Having fled in horror from anything resembling 'New Labour' the big question remains, is Labour electable? Even if it manages to harness a more 'popular' vote, I have great doubts that it will achieve the widespread support, the kind that swept Blair into power. You can go on about not being far ahead in the polls is unimportant...........but it is! The next election you have three enormous problems, apart from the lack of a lead in the opinion polls. 1) The British electoral system..........even if you up your vote, it is likely not to make sufficient change in representation. 2) The likliehood is that you won't be facing May in the next GE and the Tory campaign is hardly going to be as bad as 2017. 3) Corbyn and the policies Labour will be forwarding will come under extreme scrutiny. They will need to stand up a lot better than their present ones on Brexit!

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Perhaps that needs a little qualification. Maybe the Guardian journalists you mentioned and others, are not so much anti-Labour but anti the direction the present Labour Party has taken itself? Here surely is the conundrum for the party. The more it moves to the left the greater the chance of picking up disgruntled (anti-establishment?), unrepresented voters. On the other hand it then becomes far less appealing to it's middle-ground (Guardian writing?) supporters. Having fled in horror from anything resembling 'New Labour' the big question remains, is Labour electable? Even if it manages to harness a more 'popular' vote, I have great doubts that it will achieve the widespread support, the kind that swept Blair into power. You can go on about not being far ahead in the polls is unimportant...........but it is! The next election you have three enormous problems, apart from the lack of a lead in the opinion polls. 1) The British electoral system..........even if you up your vote, it is likely not to make sufficient change in representation. 2) The likliehood is that you won't be facing May in the next GE and the Tory campaign is hardly going to be as bad as 2017. 3) Corbyn and the policies Labour will be forwarding will come under extreme scrutiny. They will need to stand up a lot better than their present ones on Brexit!

Nick Cohen (in particular) argues that that the Labour party has left him rather than he's left the party.Good riddance.Times have changed since Blairism.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Nick Cohen (in particular) argues that that the Labour party has left him rather than he's left the party.Good riddance.Times have changed since Blairism.

Barna, that doesn't change anything from what I said above. You are clearly happier in the skin of the present Labour Party..................many aren't. By ostracizing and wishing good riddance to these kind of people you are sacrificing your chance of gaining power. To make the kind of changes in british society you are no doubt wishing for would need a clear majority. Without broad support in the present UK electoral system, you ain't going to get it. The problem is worse than that. By seeking your Holy Grail of pure socialism you risk getting us stuck with another bloody five years of Tory rule. You can go on about idealism but you can't do anything without power.

 

[blues exile]

Perhaps that needs a little qualification. Maybe the Guardian journalists you mentioned and others, are not so much anti-Labour but anti the direction the present Labour Party has taken itself? Here surely is the conundrum for the party. The more it moves to the left the greater the chance of picking up disgruntled (anti-establishment?), unrepresented voters. On the other hand it then becomes far less appealing to it's middle-ground (Guardian writing?) supporters. Having fled in horror from anything resembling 'New Labour' the big question remains, is Labour electable? Even if it manages to harness a more 'popular' vote, I have great doubts that it will achieve the widespread support, the kind that swept Blair into power. You can go on about not being far ahead in the polls is unimportant...........but it is! The next election you have three enormous problems, apart from the lack of a lead in the opinion polls. 1) The British electoral system..........even if you up your vote, it is likely not to make sufficient change in representation. 2) The likliehood is that you won't be facing May in the next GE and the Tory campaign is hardly going to be as bad as 2017. 3) Corbyn and the policies Labour will be forwarding will come under extreme scrutiny. They will need to stand up a lot better than their present ones on Brexit!

The Guardian/Observer has never been a Labour supporting newspaper. Its traditional values are firmly Liberal, ie wishy washy, do-gooding, slightly to the left of wherever centre happens to be at the time, but when it comes to the crunch, always siding with the Establishment. That's why they were and remain Blairite to their bones, because he all but destroyed the Labour Party. Now Labour has regained its raison d'etre under Corbyn they are doing their best to undermine it. The myth that Corbyn has taken the party well to the left needs exploding of course. He is very much in line with moderate European socialist tenets. Only in right wing Britain would he be regarded as a dangerous revolutionary, sadly another price to pay for the Blairite lurch to the right embracing the neo Liberal agenda.

 

[rigsby]

Nick Cohen (in particular) argues that that the Labour party has left him rather than he's left the party.Good riddance.Times have changed since Blairism.

Nick Cohen was never a fan of Blair. He is however one of the dangerous new liberals who believes in war and romoving Saddam or Gadafi well worth the butchers bill. The sort who thinks Western army boots on the ground in Syria is a goof idea.

It’s the most blinkered who are calling for an EU army.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Perhaps that needs a little qualification. Maybe the Guardian journalists you mentioned and others, are not so much anti-Labour but anti the direction the present Labour Party has taken itself? Here surely is the conundrum for the party. The more it moves to the left the greater the chance of picking up disgruntled (anti-establishment?), unrepresented voters. On the other hand it then becomes far less appealing to it's middle-ground (Guardian writing?) supporters. Having fled in horror from anything resembling 'New Labour' the big question remains, is Labour electable? Even if it manages to harness a more 'popular' vote, I have great doubts that it will achieve the widespread support, the kind that swept Blair into power. You can go on about not being far ahead in the polls is unimportant...........but it is! The next election you have three enormous problems, apart from the lack of a lead in the opinion polls. 1) The British electoral system..........even if you up your vote, it is likely not to make sufficient change in representation. 2) The likliehood is that you won't be facing May in the next GE and the Tory campaign is hardly going to be as bad as 2017. 3) Corbyn and the policies Labour will be forwarding will come under extreme scrutiny. They will need to stand up a lot better than their present ones on Brexit!

the big question remains, is Labour electable?

40% at an opportunistic election called to deliver a 100 seat majority to the Conservatives is the most valid gauge of that. Since then the Tories have trashed the one target they set themselves.

• Electoral system is what it is, nothing we can do about that
• May was in her honeymoon period when she gambled and lost the majority. Who do they have to replace her that isn’t tarnished already?
• Policy scrutiny – absolutely. Much of it involves repairing damage done over the last 8 years so the need for the policy is easily proven and the methods are common sense.
• Stand up better than the Brexit policy – the policy is to respect the result of the referendum as long as the Tory deal is fit for purpose. May has not yet had the guts to present her deal to Parliament so Labour policy is standing up so far and can be judged properly once Parliament have voted on May’s deal.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Barna, that doesn't change anything from what I said above. You are clearly happier in the skin of the present Labour Party..................many aren't. By ostracizing and wishing good riddance to these kind of people you are sacrificing your chance of gaining power. To make the kind of changes in british society you are no doubt wishing for would need a clear majority. Without broad support in the present UK electoral system, you ain't going to get it. The problem is worse than that. By seeking your Holy Grail of pure socialism you risk getting us stuck with another bloody five years of Tory rule. You can go on about idealism but you can't do anything without power.

When polls are conducted asking if people approve of Corbyn - you know, the Trot, The Marxist, Putin's puppet - he scores low.
When the same people are read out a list of policies and asked to comment they approve of current Labour policy.
It's nothing to with promoting 'pure socialism' its promoting sensible policy that is urgently needed to save our society that is currently riddled with inequality extremes.

Barna saying Nick Cohen should do one is neither here nor there, Nick Cohen is poison and his aggressively negative form of journalism would not be out of place in the Daily Mail.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Nick Cohen was never a fan of Blair. He is however one of the dangerous new liberals who believes in war and romoving Saddam or Gadafi well worth the butchers bill. The sort who thinks Western army boots on the ground in Syria is a goof idea.

It’s the most blinkered who are calling for an EU army.

I can hear it now. Forget about Barmy Army....''E U ARMY....E U ARMY''

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I can hear it now. Forget about Barmy Army....''EU ARMY....EU ARMY''

sounds like a Colchester chant....

People who don't like the idea of an EU army presumably want us to remain in the EU so we can vote against its creation rather than leave the EU and potentially have an army that we don't belong to right on our doorstep.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Barna, that doesn't change anything from what I said above. You are clearly happier in the skin of the present Labour Party..................many aren't. By ostracizing and wishing good riddance to these kind of people you are sacrificing your chance of gaining power. To make the kind of changes in british society you are no doubt wishing for would need a clear majority. Without broad support in the present UK electoral system, you ain't going to get it. The problem is worse than that. By seeking your Holy Grail of pure socialism you risk getting us stuck with another bloody five years of Tory rule. You can go on about idealism but you can't do anything without power.

You seem to be forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that Labour ,under Jeremy Corbyn,won 40% of the vote in last year's GE.I happen to believe that Labour,also under Jeremy Corbyn, can go one better next time, if it's in 2022 or even before then (as seems more likely). and remove the most incompetent Tory government in recent times from office.

 

[KevinJH]

Now there's a worry; the Remainer P.M. is allegedly being given 'advice' by the former Remainer P.M. who didn't have the cojones to see the job through......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46592394

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Now there's a worry; the Remainer P.M. is allegedly being given 'advice' by the former Remainer P.M. who didn't have the cojones to see the job through......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46592394

we knew she was desperate but.....

 

[Bielzibubz]

Perhaps that needs a little qualification. Maybe the Guardian journalists you mentioned and others, are not so much anti-Labour but anti the direction the present Labour Party has taken itself? Here surely is the conundrum for the party. The more it moves to the left the greater the chance of picking up disgruntled (anti-establishment?), unrepresented voters. On the other hand it then becomes far less appealing to it's middle-ground (Guardian writing?) supporters. Having fled in horror from anything resembling 'New Labour' the big question remains, is Labour electable? Even if it manages to harness a more 'popular' vote, I have great doubts that it will achieve the widespread support, the kind that swept Blair into power. You can go on about not being far ahead in the polls is unimportant...........but it is! The next election you have three enormous problems, apart from the lack of a lead in the opinion polls. 1) The British electoral system..........even if you up your vote, it is likely not to make sufficient change in representation. 2) The likliehood is that you won't be facing May in the next GE and the Tory campaign is hardly going to be as bad as 2017. 3) Corbyn and the policies Labour will be forwarding will come under extreme scrutiny. They will need to stand up a lot better than their present ones on Brexit!

More or less reiterates what I've been saying for months on here to Barna and others. His brand of pure Socialism is dead as a potent force for opposition. It's been dead since the bad old days of the mid 70's. Tony Bliars form of New Labour won in the way it did because it was just a broader appealing form of left of centre Tory capitalism.

Lets also not forget that JC comes with an awful lot of past baggage he'd rather people forgot, and he's not the first amongst the Labour far left with things in their past that the party would rather didn't come to light.

 

[rigsby]

sounds like a Colchester chant....

People who don't like the idea of an EU army presumably want us to remain in the EU so we can vote against its creation rather than leave the EU and potentially have an army that we don't belong to right on our doorstep.

We have a world army called the UN who have never achieved anything because we have to many chiefs and not enough Naitive Americans.

We have EU countries tha haven’t even payed their NATO contributions. The EU army would be another expensive and corrupt pointless exercise with same people, like the UK paying the bill.

The only place you would see them used is on the streets of Paris or Barcelona against its own people.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

More or less reiterates what I've been saying for months on here to Barna and others. His brand of pure Socialism is dead as a potent force for opposition. It's been dead since the bad old days of the mid 70's. Tony Bliars form of New Labour won in the way it did because it was just a broader appealing form of left of centre Tory capitalism.

Lets also not forget that JC comes with an awful lot of past baggage he'd rather people forgot, and he's not the first amongst the Labour far left with things in their past that the party would rather didn't come to light.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that in last year's GE,Jeremy Corbyn's "brand of pure socialism" very nearly won. Still it makes a change to discuss HMO rather tnan the trials and tribulations of this Tory government's incompetent Brexit proposals,I suppose.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

We have a world army called the UN who have never achieved anything because we have to many chiefs and not enough Naitive Americans.

We have EU countries tha haven’t even payed their NATO contributions. The EU army would be another expensive and corrupt pointless exercise with same people, like the UK paying the bill.

The only place you would see them used is on the streets of Paris or Barcelona against its own people.

so you don't mind the EU having an army as long as we don't contribute?

 

[rigsby]

so you don't mind the EU having an army as long as we don't contribute?

I don’t care, we won’t be in it.

Just like the Euro it will prove to be a disaster for some countries and will just be another hole in the sinking ship.

70 % of Labour constituencies agree with me. If Corby. Wants to play his violin on deck as the the ship goes down then good luck to him