2017 General Election thread

[dloman]

all of those people who were burying legitimate concerns whether it was in 1999, 2009 or 2017 should be made to answer for their actions. First task of landlords, local and national government is to keep the public safe.

Many apologies replied before I saw your post and fully agreed as this going to go very deep through governments past and present.

 

[Pubey]

Think you are going to find the Government were first warned about this in 1999 and again in 2009 anything in common there? But this shouldn't be politicised as more likely management company/suppliers etc.

I'm not making this a tory/labour thing. Anyone and everyone is open for criticism if found to be culpable.

 

[Firestorm]

So what did Labour do after the fire in Lakanal Southwark did they try and introduce any legislation whilst they were still in power? I think you are fully aware of the answer but will sidestep it as usual to use your common default of blame the Tories for everything. As I previously said there were warning back in 1999 but they were ignored by a Labour government for 11 years.

Southwark Council pleased guilty to charges of breaking fire regulations

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...fety-failings-tower-block-lakanal-house-blaze

it took 7 years to get them to court.

 

[londonblue]

I assume you have not heard any of the interviews with the residents then? Plenty of them are putting the blame firmly at the door of the landlords, the council the government.
I assume you have not read any newspapers then? Plenty of them are putting the blame firmly at the door of the landlords, the council the government.
£10 million spent on cosmetics of the building that sound likely to have quickened the pace of the flames, residents petitions on fire safety ignored and no access to legal aid, reports on fire safety of tower blocks shelved by the Minister for Housing, home safety laws rejected in Parliament last year by all of the landlord MPs, Boris Johnson axed 10 fire stations and 552 firefighters.
Why would this forum be the only place to hide from the fact that political decisions have real world impact?
You have expressed anger on here a few times, anger is a healthy emotion but it should be aimed in the right direction. I’d suggest if you are angry that someone would point out that actions have consequences you should really be angry about the actions that have consequences.

I think the most important thing is to not jump to conclusions. What people think and what is actually the cause aren't necessarily the same thing. An extreme example is the resident that said on the BBC yesterday that he wouldn't be surprised to find out this wasn't an accident because "they" don't want the likes of him living there anymore. Not all opinions will be correct, but some obviously will.

The really important thing is to keep a completely open mind during the investigation to ensure the correct conclusion is reached. I would say listening to residents' interviews on TV isn't really the way to go. I would also say that politicising this is also not the way to go. Both of those will lead to a skewed investigation.

Wait for the conclusions, and then go for it all you want, but until then I would urge people to not jump to conclusions.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I think the most important thing is to not jump to conclusions. What people think and what is actually the cause aren't necessarily the same thing. An extreme example is the resident that said on the BBC yesterday that he wouldn't be surprised to find out this wasn't an accident because "they" don't want the likes of him living there anymore. Not all opinions will be correct, but some obviously will.

The really important thing is to keep a completely open mind during the investigation to ensure the correct conclusion is reached. I would say listening to residents' interviews on TV isn't really the way to go. I would also say that politicising this is also not the way to go. Both of those will lead to a skewed investigation.

Wait for the conclusions, and then go for it all you want, but until then I would urge people to not jump to conclusions.

Personally,I happen to think that it's justified to believe that austerity cuts, which have now been in operation since 2010 are the root cause of this tragedy.This is how the poor die.

In any case, any enquiry will take some time to report and could well be a whitewash.Saw one of the builders-Rendons I believe -saying that the 10 million pound refurbishment,which took place last year had all been signed off,for example.That maybe so but doesn't account for the fact that local tenant's associations have apparently complained 3 times in recent years that the building was a fire risk,only for their fears to be to be disregarded.

These are not people who can easily afford lawyers fees, unlike other local residents, the Camerons and the Beckhams

 

[londonblue]

Personally,I happen to think that it's justified to believe that austerity cuts, which have now been in operation since 2010 are the root cause of this tragedy.This is how the poor die.

In any case, any enquiry will take some time to report and could well be a whitewash.Saw one of the builders-Rentons I believe -saying that the 10 million pound refurbishment,which took place last year had all been signed off,for example.That maybe so but doesn't account for the fact that local tennant's associations have apparently complained 3 times in recent years that the building was a fire risk,only for their fears to be to be disregarded.

These are not people who can easily afford lawyers fees, unlike other local residents, the Camerons and the Beckhams

Therein lies your problem. Instead of allowing the evidence to lead to a conclusion you want to make the evidence fit the conclusion you've already decided on.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Therein lies your problem. Instead of allowing the evidence to lead to a conclusion you want to make the evidence fit the conclusion you've already decided on.

It's naive of you (or anyone else) to think that a terrible tragedy like this won't have implications and consequences on the law for housing and safety in tower blocks for years to come.

 

[rigsby]

Personally,I happen to think that it's justified to believe that austerity cuts, which have now been in operation since 2010 are the root cause of this tragedy.This is how the poor die.

In any case, any enquiry will take some time to report and could well be a whitewash.Saw one of the builders-Rendons I believe -saying that the 10 million pound refurbishment,which took place last year had all been signed off,for example.That maybe so but doesn't account for the fact that local tenant's associations have apparently complained 3 times in recent years that the building was a fire risk,only for their fears to be to be disregarded.

These are not people who can easily afford lawyers fees, unlike other local residents, the Camerons and the Beckhams

Utter rubbish Tangled. The public enquiry will prove it is because of the cladding that the fire not only spread rapidly but actually acted as fuel which allowed it to breach all the flats involved. I can see that by the nature and colour of the flames that virtually flashed up the outside of Grenfell Tower. The materials used will be thoroughly tested and the method of installation. I personally believe it will be proved just how lapse we have become over materials used in building, especially high rise, in modern times.

Now I know you and some of your mates will claim there will be a cover up just like Hillsborough but the London Fire brigade are certainly not the senior management of South Yorkshire police. They have no reason to protect landlords politicians, builders or anyone else and have ALWAYS served the people of London, whatever the social background or ethnicity with some of highest standards of firefighting in the world. If you don't believe me have a look at the Kings Cross enquiry there was no cover up then. In fact ordinary firefighters were happy to point out the failings in their system and equipment. Which is why the LFB had over a dozen recommendations where it had to improve. Up until Kings Cross I was going into fires with a 50 year old designed 'lancers' tunic, yellow plastic leggings and red plastic gardening gloves which melted on your hands and done more damage in a flash over.

The Fire Service has been the target cuts long before austerity, by politicians from bot sides for over 30 Years. Tony Blair actively picked a fight with the FBU as he wanted to prove how 'centre' he was by taking on the strongest union after the miners had been defeated by Thatcher. John McDonald did support us but I never JC at any rallies.

Boris cut more machines than anyone else but previously Ken followed Blair's instructions and cut the fire inspections by Fire Service personnel. Oh and some machines just for good measure.

Throughout the last 20 years deaths have increased in the Fire Service but this has barley had a mention in parliament whilst the right wing union hating press have delighted in slagging some very brave people and at times not even reported the fires where Firefighters have died.

 

[Benfleet A1]

Utter rubbish Tangled. The public enquiry will prove it is because of the cladding that the fire not only spread rapidly but actually acted as fuel which allowed it to breach all the flats involved. I can see that by the nature and colour of the flames that virtually flashed up the outside of Grenfell Tower. The materials used will be thoroughly tested and the method of installation. I personally believe it will be proved just how lapse we have become over materials used in building, especially high rise, in modern times.

Now I know you and some of your mates will claim there will be a cover up just like Hillsborough but the London Fire brigade are certainly not the senior management of South Yorkshire police. They have no reason to protect landlords politicians, builders or anyone else and have ALWAYS served the people of London, whatever the social background or ethnicity with some of highest standards of firefighting in the world. If you don't believe me have a look at the Kings Cross enquiry there was no cover up then. In fact ordinary firefighters were happy to point out the failings in their system and equipment. Which is why the LFB had over a dozen recommendations where it had to improve. Up until Kings Cross I was going into fires with a 50 year old designed 'lancers' tunic, yellow plastic leggings and red plastic gardening gloves which melted on your hands and done more damage in a flash over.

The Fire Service has been the target cuts long before austerity, by politicians from bot sides for over 30 Years. Tony Blair actively picked a fight with the FBU as he wanted to prove how 'centre' he was by taking on the strongest union after the miners had been defeated by Thatcher. John McDonald did support us but I never JC at any rallies.

Boris cut more machines than anyone else but previously Ken followed Blair's instructions and cut the fire inspections by Fire Service personnel. Oh and some machines just for good measure.

Throughout the last 20 years deaths have increased in the Fire Service but this has barley had a mention in parliament whilst the right wing union hating press have delighted in slagging some very brave people and at times not even reported the fires where Firefighters have died.

You have bigger balls than me. I couldn't have done your job, respect.

 

[rigsby]

You have bigger balls than me. I couldn't have done your job, respect.

There are far braver people than me in the fire service including all those that went into Grenfell house the other night.

Let me give you an insight and I am in no way trying to take any kudos or credit from you zoners I just think you might want to know the reality.

One of the guys (Craig) I mentioned on the other thread who ended up on the 12th floor in Grenfell house, has a scar on his face. This is from a previous fire in Bethnal Green road where sadly 2 firefighters died in a flashover. Craig lead the first team that tried to rescue the 2 missing firefighters. He did not give up until the paint had blistered off of his fire helmet and his face mask had melted onto his face.....Hence the scar.

My other friend 'Max' lead the second team in and managed to retrieve the body (they knew he was dead) of one of the firefighters.

Craig took along time to get over that fire, he lived with a lot of guilt. He even went cage fighting at the Circus Tavern because he felt he had to 'prove' himself. Myself and another good friend 'Max' had some long chats late at night which proved better than any counselling.

Now despite all that when Craig turned up at Grenfell house the other night aged 54 and despite seeing his Crew Manger nearly killed by a 'jumper' he still climbed 12 flights of stairs with no water in that inferno. I find that truly amazing. I really cant find the words to describe how proud I am if my good friends Craig Edwards and Pavinder Sing....Not just two of London's bravest but also two of London's finest.

 

[londonblue]

It's naive of you (or anyone else) to think that a terrible tragedy like this won't have implications and consequences on the law for housing and safety in tower blocks for years to come.

You really don't think sometimes. It's simply wrong to form a conclusion and fit the evidence to it. That's what leads to miscarriages of justice in the police force.

Who said anything about thinking it won't have consequences? People giving evidence to the inquiry will know that they are possibly covering their arses, but it is up people conducting the inquiry to sift through all the evidence and find out what is and isn't a contributory factor. An inquiry needs to be able to get to the bottom of the issue, whatever it is. To start an inquiry already "knowing" the outcome will most likely lead to the wrong outcome.

This is no different than a trial. People are innocent until proven guilty. You're acting like a dictator, and suggesting the opposite.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Utter rubbish Tangled. The public enquiry will prove it is because of the cladding that the fire not only spread rapidly but actually acted as fuel which allowed it to breach all the flats involved. I can see that by the nature and colour of the flames that virtually flashed up the outside of Grenfell Tower. The materials used will be thoroughly tested and the method of installation. I personally believe it will be proved just how lapse we have become over materials used in building, especially high rise, in modern times.

Now I know you and some of your mates will claim there will be a cover up just like Hillsborough but the London Fire brigade are certainly not the senior management of South Yorkshire police. They have no reason to protect landlords politicians, builders or anyone else and have ALWAYS served the people of London, whatever the social background or ethnicity with some of highest standards of firefighting in the world. If you don't believe me have a look at the Kings Cross enquiry there was no cover up then. In fact ordinary firefighters were happy to point out the failings in their system and equipment. Which is why the LFB had over a dozen recommendations where it had to improve. Up until Kings Cross I was going into fires with a 50 year old designed 'lancers' tunic, yellow plastic leggings and red plastic gardening gloves which melted on your hands and done more damage in a flash over.

The Fire Service has been the target cuts long before austerity, by politicians from bot sides for over 30 Years. Tony Blair actively picked a fight with the FBU as he wanted to prove how 'centre' he was by taking on the strongest union after the miners had been defeated by Thatcher. John McDonald did support us but I never JC at any rallies.

Boris cut more machines than anyone else but previously Ken followed Blair's instructions and cut the fire inspections by Fire Service personnel. Oh and some machines just for good measure.

Throughout the last 20 years deaths have increased in the Fire Service but this has barley had a mention in parliament whilst the right wing union hating press have delighted in slagging some very brave people and at times not even reported the fires where Firefighters have died.

Nobody (certainly not me) would ever question the bravery or the efficiency the LFB.I would agree that the cladding appears to be the culprit here.Also why weren't sprinklers installed as part of the refiurb?Probably to save a couple of hundred thousand on costs.Shame on you London borough of Chelsea and Kensington,probably the richest council on the planet.

 

[maninasuitcase]

It is not very often I agree with George Osborne, but after hearing Mrs May's interview with Emily Maitlis broadcast on Radio 5 earlier today, she definitely appears to be on borrowed time.

She didn't really respond to any of the questions properly or honestly, instead she seemed to prefer to trot out a series of statements that had been prepared earlier. And the £5m on offer to help the people affected, while very welcome, seems something the government has been shamed into offering by the generosity of the ordinary members of the public, was 48 hours too late.

Finally, governments are supposed to lead in times of crisis, but sadly Mrs May doesn't seem up to the job.

 

[EastStandBlue]

People protesting in the streets and the Murdoch-Dacre axis of evil have turned on her. I give her a month.

 

[Gt Yarmouth Shrimper]

People protesting in the streets and the Murdoch-Dacre axis of evil have turned on her. I give her a month.

A fortnight I reckon now Murdoch has deserted her.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Left for a week in Greece, the day of the election, got back yesterday.............has anything interesting happened?:winking:

 

[maninasuitcase]

Left for a week in Greece, the day of the election, got back yesterday.............has anything interesting happened?:winking:

I don't think so, it has been pretty quiet round here.

 

[londonblue]

Nobody (certainly not me) would ever question the bravery or the efficiency the LFB.I would agree that the cladding appears to be the culprit here.Also why weren't sprinklers installed as part of the refiurb?Probably to save a couple of hundred thousand on costs.Shame on you London borough of Chelsea and Kensington,probably the richest council on the planet.

I see you're still doing it.

:hilarious:

 

[Last Of The Summer Groyne]

Looking at the Southend constituencies (trying to get on track as thread seems to be unravelling into the traditional kiddies playground among some) there's a shift that seems to echo what the exit poll and overall result suggested.

In Southend East, James Duddridge had his majority reduced to 5,500, despite having gained 2,800 since 2015. The Ukip vote collapsed by 7,200 so it's probably safe to surmise the increase came from there. Labour's vote shot up by 6,900, though, with the Lib Dems and Greens dropping by a combined 1,600. Even if you take Labour's share of the lost Kipper vote, and gaining what the Greens and Lib Dems lost, their vote still went up. The increased turnout heavily favoured the red side. A rock solid safe Conservative seat is now on the edge of marginal. Only when Blair came to power in 1997 was the majority less.

Not quite to that extent, but still similar in Southend West. An impressive track record for Conservative stalwart David Amess. 9 general elections, 9 wins, with four of them when the constituencies were considered marginal. A whopping 10,000 majority, too, and his vote up by 3,800. It all seems good. Yet Labour's vote leapt up by 7,8000, hoovering up Ukip / Lib Dem / Green / higher turnout voters, and cut the majority by 4,000.

It seems that Conservatives overall were the happy recipients of the collapsed Ukip vote, but far from almost all which many people predicted, and Labour has gained votes from all directions. Looking at the striking differences in their campaigns, it could be argued that Conservatives comfortably defeated Labour, but Corbyn gave May a real hammering, which meant a 20+% poll lead when the election was called was whittled down to just 2.4% by the end. Had May been anywhere near as effective as Corbyn, a comfortable majority together with the comfortable win would have happened.

So there you are - safe Tory seats indicating May needs to go just as much as the marginals do.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-grenfell-tower-identified-as-omnis-exteriors

Anyone who thinks that the decision to use the cheaper (and less fire resitant) form of cladding in the refurb wasn't down to cost cutting is delusional