USA bad cops.

[southendkid]

We are talking about a 12 year old child,the police were no more than 10 feet from the boy and they had their car as cover unlike the kid who was in the open.

It isn't about police safety, it's about the people standing in the area. The kid was pointing a gun at people, if he was threatening to shoot people and you shoot him in the leg and it doesn't bring him down he might start shooting at civilians. It sucks but if the police shot him in the leg and it turned out that he was armed and he killed someone because he stayed standing everyone would be blaming the police for not acting quick enough. I doubt the policeman wanted to kill a kid but that's what he was trained to do and he did it, he's probably not sleeping well at the moment but he had to do it.

 

[dingleydangley]

You need to stop believing everything you see in movies, in real life if someone shoots you in the leg and your intention is to shoot random people you are going to think 'ok the police are trying to shoot me' and then start shooting back either at them or at innocent bystanders depending on what your motivations are. There have been shootouts in history where both FBI agents and the criminals have been shot multiple times yet were still standing and able to fire back, adrenaline is a powerful thing.

This 'watching too many movies' mantra is tired and dull. The cops have watched too much Judge Dread. People play too many violent video games. Young men fetishise guns. All of these hold some truth but they don'y explain the insanity of the U.S. There are other countries with widespread gun ownership (Switzerland, Canada) but they're simply not as trigger-happy as Americans. In 'real life' people don't have to be shot until they stop twitching, they don't have to be 'filled full of lead' like in the movies.

 

[Ricky Otto]

Interesting that the discussion has turned to the TV documentary Cops. I think anyone who has seen an episode will note the point mrsblue has made regarding the actions of the officers involved “bordering on lunacy”. OBL also makes a good point on it being a show edited for entertainment purposes and showing them in their worst light to chase ratings. This is a TV show that has being running since 1989 and is very popular in the US I’m led to believe, so what sort of person watches these guys and thinks “this looks like a good job, I want to be a cop”? I have an idea. I’m not claiming all cops are like this but it only takes a few to cause major issues.

 

[southendkid]

This 'watching too many movies' mantra is tired and dull. The cops have watched too much Judge Dread. People play too many violent video games. Young men fetishise guns. All of these hold some truth but they don'y explain the insanity of the U.S. There are other countries with widespread gun ownership (Switzerland, Canada) but they're simply not as trigger-happy as Americans. In 'real life' people don't have to be shot until they stop twitching, they don't have to be 'filled full of lead' like in the movies.

So you are suggesting that cops are so trigger-happy that they would rather kill a 12 year old boy when there is a viable non-leathal alternative that keeps the population safe and a child alive? Ridiculous. I agree that America is more trigger happy than most countries but that is exactly why the police have to be lethal, there have been too many cases where kids go into a school and start shooting knowing that he is going to die (either by suicide or in a shootout) for the police to take chances. If the kid was one of those guys then a non lethal solution won't stop him, if you don't disable him straight away (and you can never be sure a bullet will disable someone since vitals are in slightly different positions on different people, hence why cops are trained to fire multiple times) the kid will know it's the endgame and just start shooting any innocents to take as many people as he can with him.

 

[mrsblue]

Interesting that the discussion has turned to the TV documentary Cops. I think anyone who has seen an episode will note the point mrsblue has made regarding the actions of the officers involved “bordering on lunacy”. OBL also makes a good point on it being a show edited for entertainment purposes and showing them in their worst light to chase ratings. This is a TV show that has being running since 1989 and is very popular in the US I’m led to believe, so what sort of person watches these guys and thinks “this looks like a good job, I want to be a cop”? I have an idea. I’m not claiming all cops are like this but it only takes a few to cause major issues.

This week on "cops" I watched as a minor scuffle became a full blown all out assault by the cops on one man,this guy was thrown face first into the concrete pavement TWICE then tasered then assaulted again.The guy was in the police car when the officer who did the damage was trying to justify his mental actions but the guy assaulted continued to say I ain't done nothing..the final say was from the cop.."I am right you are wrong"

Wonder how tough this cop would be in prison?,Defo someones bitch in the making.

 

[mrsblue]

It isn't about police safety, it's about the people standing in the area. The kid was pointing a gun at people, if he was threatening to shoot people and you shoot him in the leg and it doesn't bring him down he might start shooting at civilians. It sucks but if the police shot him in the leg and it turned out that he was armed and he killed someone because he stayed standing everyone would be blaming the police for not acting quick enough. I doubt the policeman wanted to kill a kid but that's what he was trained to do and he did it, he's probably not sleeping well at the moment but he had to do it.

The park looked deserted !

 

[steveo]

The park looked deserted !

I suspect the park was bigger than the small area shown on the film and presumably as the bloke was waving a gun around other people may have decided not too stand too close.

Lets face it, if the bloke had not been waving a replica firearm around the police would not have been called and he wouldn't have been shot. Moral of the story, leave your replica gun at home.

 

[GBJ]

You need to stop believing everything you see in movies, in real life if someone shoots you in the leg and your intention is to shoot random people you are going to think 'ok the police are trying to shoot me' and then start shooting back either at them or at innocent bystanders depending on what your motivations are. There have been shootouts in history where both FBI agents and the criminals have been shot multiple times yet were still standing and able to fire back, adrenaline is a powerful thing.

Out of curiosity, have you ever used/encountered a real firearm? I've used some of the most ferocious guns on the planet, on numerous occasions & I can assure you, the sheer power and spite of a real gun is very sobering. The loudness, the smell & force of the soundwave are indescribeable. I've had many adrenaline rushes, but I can honestly say, if I was plugged, the amount of fear, panic & pain ripping through me, would be the controlling factor & I'd fold up like an accordion. Believe me, all thought process, would go out the window, double time.

So basically, even though it is possible, To be shot & keep moving forward, I'd say the vast majority of the general public, if shot, would crumble in shock & fear.

What you see in movies, people being shot numerous times & keep coming forward, vary rarely happens

 

[MK Shrimper]

Out of curiosity, have you ever used/encountered a real firearm? I've used some of the most ferocious guns on the planet, on numerous occasions & I can assure you, the sheer power and spite of a real gun is very sobering. The loudness, the smell & force of the soundwave are indescribeable. I've had many adrenaline rushes, but I can honestly say, if I was plugged, the amount of fear, panic & pain ripping through me, would be the controlling factor & I'd fold up like an accordion. Believe me, all thought process, would go out the window, double time.

So basically, even though it is possible, To be shot & keep moving forward, I'd say the vast majority of the general public, if shot, would crumble in shock & fear.

What you see in movies, people being shot numerous times & keep coming forward, vary rarely happens

Is that a quote GBJ? It was reported on QI that the only reason people fall over when they're shot is that they've seen it on TV or in a film, and who am I to doubt the QI Elves?

 

[Jam_Man]

Out of curiosity, have you ever used/encountered a real firearm? I've used some of the most ferocious guns on the planet, on numerous occasions & I can assure you, the sheer power and spite of a real gun is very sobering. The loudness, the smell & force of the soundwave are indescribeable. I've had many adrenaline rushes, but I can honestly say, if I was plugged, the amount of fear, panic & pain ripping through me, would be the controlling factor & I'd fold up like an accordion. Believe me, all thought process, would go out the window, double time.

So basically, even though it is possible, To be shot & keep moving forward, I'd say the vast majority of the general public, if shot, would crumble in shock & fear.

What you see in movies, people being shot numerous times & keep coming forward, vary rarely happens

A person you shoot in the leg only needs a second to pull the trigger.

You might have encountered a real firearm but Ive read every Jack Reacher novel.

 

[GBJ]

Is that a quote GBJ? It was reported on QI that the only reason people fall over when they're shot is that they've seen it on TV or in a film, and who am I to doubt the QI Elves?

No mate, just my own personal thoughts. See, if you've been around guns, you get a sense of respect for them. You learn & understand the sheer, unforgiving, destructive ability that a gun has. The smell is unforgettable, whilst the sound (and more accurately) the soundwave rattles your body. What I'm getting at, is your mind is all over the place When you pull a trigger. So actually being shot, isn't even comprehensible to me. I believe Shock, fear & panic would take over most peoples bodies in milliseconds.

And that brings me to your point, which I'd love to agree with, but I'm almost certain, people fall over, more through shock than anything else

 

[Jam_Man]

Watch this, shot in chest, doesnt fall over and stop him...

[video=youtube;Rn6Pipskb78]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn6Pipskb78[/video]

 

[GBJ]

A person you shoot in the leg only needs a second to pull the trigger.

You might have encountered a real firearm but Ive read every Jack Reacher novel.

Fair point. Lets examine what a bullet travelling at 1500+mph is capable of though... Your flesh is ripped with ease. The bones underneath are smashed as this tiny object burrows through, causing bone fragments to act as shrapnel & tear your muscles, tendons, veins and tissue. The sheer ferocity of it, causing shock waves to ripple through your body. Before you even had a chance to blink, that bullet has exited your body & caused a cavity behind it, which will leak blood, quickly. Then there's the risk of your blood pressure dropping, causing you to lose brain function, followed by inevitable loss of consciousness.

Of course, some people can momentarily/partially keep going, but it's not as common as tv/films make it out to be, which was my initial point to Southendkid

 

[MK Shrimper]

I think we need to experiment? Any volunteers out there fancy taking a bullet for the zone? I would but I've got a bit of a cough....

 

[Jam_Man]

Fair point. Lets examine what a bullet travelling at 1500+mph is capable of though... Your flesh is ripped with ease. The bones underneath are smashed as this tiny object burrows through, causing bone fragments to act as shrapnel & tear your muscles, tendons, veins and tissue. The sheer ferocity of it, causing shock waves to ripple through your body. Before you even had a chance to blink, that bullet has exited your body & caused a cavity behind it, which will leak blood, quickly. Then there's the risk of your blood pressure dropping, causing you to lose brain function, followed by inevitable loss of consciousness.

Of course, some people can momentarily/partially keep going, but it's not as common as tv/films make it out to be, which was my initial point to Southendkid

Indeed, what you cant do is Bruce Willis or Jack Bauer it, ie get shot in the shoulder and carry on for hours.

However thats not the point in this discussion, its just whether you can wound a suspect to end the threat. The police officer is standing a matter of feet away from someone and the incident will only take seconds to end, and they cant take chances aiming for arms or legs when their own life depends on it.

What about the Boston marathon terrorists, one of them was shot multiple times yet got away.

This makes interesting reading:

http://www.pfoa.co.uk/110/shooting-to-wound

 

[southendkid]

Out of curiosity, have you ever used/encountered a real firearm? I've used some of the most ferocious guns on the planet, on numerous occasions & I can assure you, the sheer power and spite of a real gun is very sobering. The loudness, the smell & force of the soundwave are indescribeable. I've had many adrenaline rushes, but I can honestly say, if I was plugged, the amount of fear, panic & pain ripping through me, would be the controlling factor & I'd fold up like an accordion. Believe me, all thought process, would go out the window, double time.

So basically, even though it is possible, To be shot & keep moving forward, I'd say the vast majority of the general public, if shot, would crumble in shock & fear.

What you see in movies, people being shot numerous times & keep coming forward, vary rarely happens

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Read that shootout, specifically the line at the end:

'Toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix (the suspects) to fight through multiple traumatic gunshot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were drug-free at the time of their deaths.'

The police have upgraded their firepower since 1986 but it shows that the human body is pretty resilient when it needs to be. If you are being shot at your body wants to survive, it can deal with the shock of being shot later on once you've made your escape.

 

[GBJ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Read that shootout, specifically the line at the end:

'Toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix (the suspects) to fight through multiple traumatic gunshot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were drug-free at the time of their deaths.'

Both men were former military veterans, and one of them served in Vietnam!! Obviously a man who's served in Vietnam isn't going to panic or go into shock at the first sign of gunfire? Not really comparable to a 12-year-old kid, or any other member of the general public.

The police have upgraded their firepower since 1986 but it shows that the human body is pretty resilient when it needs to be. If you are being shot at your body wants to survive, it can deal with the shock of being shot later on once you've made your escape.

So I take it you've been around guns then & know firsthand, just what they can do, because u seem to have missed my question?

Of course the human body is resilient, but it's not magical. Even in your story above, the firefight only lasted 4 minutes!! That's four minutes, for a battle hardened vet, which is considerably more than your average man on the street could deal with.

When you're shot, your blood pressure will drop, your body temperature drops, your pulse slows & you're breathing becomes erratic. You're in blinding pain, there's blood everywhere so the inevitable Panic/fear/shock sets in. It consumes you. Of course there are still people who'd struggle against it & desperately try to squeeze off their own shots, but it's my honest opinion that the majority of people, would crumble.

 

[Jam_Man]

They only need half a second of consciousness to pull the trigger if the cop even manages to hit the arm or leg.

Read that link I posted, explains all the reasons why its not realistic.

 

[southendkid]

Both men were former military veterans, and one of them served in Vietnam!! Obviously a man who's served in Vietnam isn't going to panic or go into shock at the first sign of gunfire? Not really comparable to a 12-year-old kid, or any other member of the general public.




So I take it you've been around guns then & know firsthand, just what they can do, because u seem to have missed my question?

Of course the human body is resilient, but it's not magical. Even in your story above, the firefight only lasted 4 minutes!! That's four minutes, for a battle hardened vet, which is considerably more than your average man on the street could deal with.

When you're shot, your blood pressure will drop, your body temperature drops, your pulse slows & you're breathing becomes erratic. You're in blinding pain, there's blood everywhere so the inevitable Panic/fear/shock sets in. It consumes you. Of course there are still people who'd struggle against it & desperately try to squeeze off their own shots, but it's my honest opinion that the majority of people, would crumble.

I don't see why having experience with guns is necessary, I don't need to do heroin to know it's a bad idea. Unless you've actually shot a gun at a human being it doesn't sound like you have any more experience than me, you're just guessing based off the gun having more recoil than you were expecting. 4 minutes is plenty of time, but so is 4 seconds. It only takes 4 seconds to unload a clip of a sub machine gun for example. There's also the problem that legs aren't a very big target, you could easily miss the legs or only graze them and get shot back at.

 

[Benfleet A1]

Just as a observation on firing a gun. I was lucky enough to have fired a AK47. It was target shooting I hasten to add. At 150 metres firing single shots I was reasonably good and hit the target more often than not. On fully automatic all I hit was air. I wasn't under any pressure. I wonder what sort of pressure a police officer might be under.