The EU Referendum

[superblue24]

Thats because the media have focussed on how the Tory party is ripping itself apart. If we "remain" the blood letting will be interesting viewing indeed.

Yet the overwhelming majority would still vote Tory in a snap election next week (for example).

Sorry MK, but the LP shift to a more "bed wetting" variety of the left wing has all but destroyed them as viable alternatives. Head to central city once more and they will be a force to be reckoned with again.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Yet the overwhelming majority would still vote Tory in a snap election next week (for example).

Sorry MK, but the LP shift to a more "bed wetting" variety of the left wing has all but destroyed them as viable alternatives. Head to central city once more and they will be a force to be reckoned with again.

We'll see. Many Labour supporters are happy that we're more where we should be than Blair's version of Thatcherism.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

That will all be forgotten in six months. Modern politics is all about who is your leader, absolutely nothing else matters. The Tory spats will be over but Labour will still have dear old Jeremy.

If you don't believe me just look at Nick Clegg, even her Ladyship voted for him when sounded all very nice in 2010. Five years later after appearing to be Cameron's wimpy little fag he had single-handedly nearly made the Liberals extinct.

Actually,modern politics is all about winning elections.And always has been.

 

[superblue24]

We'll see. Many Labour supporters are happy that we're more where we should be than Blair's version of Thatcherism.

Agree with that.... But you aren't going to attract the floater voters though.....

 

[Uncle Leo]

Thats because the media have focussed on how the Tory party is ripping itself apart. If we "remain" the blood letting will be interesting viewing indeed.

Win, lose or draw (the latter seems improbable) the subsequent fallout for the Conservative party is going to be very interesting. At the start of the campaign, commentator Matthew Parris (The Times, former Tory MP) suggested that if Remain won, Cameron should embark on a 'night of the long knives' to get rid of all those within the party who opposed him in this campaign.

Were that to happen....

 

[Pubey]

Win, lose or draw (the latter seems improbable) the subsequent fallout for the Conservative party is going to be very interesting. At the start of the campaign, commentator Matthew Parris (The Times, former Tory MP) suggested that if Remain won, Cameron should embark on a 'night of the long knives' to get rid of all those within the party who opposed him in this campaign.

Were that to happen....

I think irrespective of the result, Cameron has to look at the comments made by Gove in recent weeks... ranging from stupid, to pretty shameful.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Please don't misquote me, I haven't said he is wrong I said it is possible that he could be discredited.

As for the scruples of this campaign, they have been absent on both sides.

In terms of what I found disingenuous, and perhaps with your legally trained mind you can help me here...was the part about Sovereignty (you will need to keep it fairly simple though I'm afraid).

If we are truly Sovereign...then can Brussels make our Laws?...and the European court implement despite the wishes of Parliament and those who elected it?

The Professor is very clear in stating that the EU is not sovereign, and yet goes onto say that part of belonging means we give away power and decision making to it.

In simple terms and correct me if I'm wrong (despite legal theory), the EU Commission propose Law (they are appointed not elected), and those laws then goes to the European parliament who can amend, pass or decline accordingly?

He could be discredited or his views could be discredited?
If the former, my apologies and I clearly made a mistake in assuming you'd play the ball and not the man. If the latter, I'm having a little trouble in squaring that away with "it might be wrong".


Anyway to answer your question, yes Parliament is sovereign as Brussels' authority derives from Parliament.

It's the same concept as secondary legislation, which forms the overwhelming majority of UK legislation. Much of the detail of English law is not passed by the Houses of Parliament but is instead delegated and a faceless bureaucrat (or quango) ends up filling in the all important bits and avoiding proper Parliamentary scrutiny.

For example, 2009 saw just 27 Acts of UK Parliament but over 3000 delegated pieces of secondary legislation put into law by individuals or bodies other than Parliament.

Here's just a small selection of them from wiki

The Local Government (Structural Changes) (Further Financial Provisions and Amendment) Regulations (SI 2009/5)
The Conservation (Natural Habitats, &c.) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Regulations (SI 2009/6)
The Offshore Marine Conservation (Natural Habitats, &c.) (Amendment) Regulations (SI 2009/7)
The 5875-5905 MHz Frequency Band (Management) Regulations (SI 2009/11)
The Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 (Transitory Provisions) Order (SI 2009/12)
The Wireless Telegraphy (Register) (Amendment) Regulations (SI 2009/14)
The Wireless Telegraphy (Limitation of Number of Grants of Crown Recognised Spectrum Access) Order (SI 2009/15)
The Wireless Telegraphy (Crown Recognised Spectrum Access) Regulations (SI 2009/16)
The Wireless Telegraphy (Recognised Spectrum Access and Licence) (Spectrum Trading) Regulations (SI 2009/17)
The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (County of Derbyshire) Designation Order (SI 2009/19)
The Copyright (Certification of Licensing Scheme for Educational Recording of Broadcasts) (Educational Recording Agency Limited) (Amendment) Order (SI 2009/20)
The Income Tax Act 2007 (Amendment) Order (SI 2009/23)
The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (County of West Sussex) (Adur District) Designation Order (SI 2009/24)
The Education (Admissions Appeals Arrangements) (England) (Amendment) Regulations (SI 2009/25)
The General Chiropractic Council (Constitution of the Statutory Committees) Rules Order of Council (SI 2009/26)
The General Chiropractic Council (Registration of Chiropractors with United Kingdom Qualifications that are not Recognised Qualifications) Rules Order of Council (SI 2009/27)
The Feeding Stuffs (England) (Amendment) Regulations (SI 2009/28)
The National Health Service (Charges for Drugs and Appliances) Amendment Regulations (SI 2009/29)
The Income-related Benefits (Subsidy to Authorities) Amendment Order (SI 2009/30)
The Offender Management Act 2007 (Commencement No. 3) Order (SI 2009/32)
The Home Information Pack (Amendment) Regulations (SI 2009/34)
The Stamp Duty and Stamp Duty Reserve Tax (Investment Exchanges and Clearing Houses) Regulations (SI 2009/35)
The Building Societies (Funding) and Mutual Societies (Transfers) Act 2007 (Commencement No. 1) Order (SI 2009/36)
The Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 (Prescribed Criteria and Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations (SI 2009/37)
The Health Protection (Vaccination) Regulations (SI 2009/38)
The Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 (Commencement No. 3) Order (SI 2009/39)
The Local Government (Assistants for Political Groups) (Remuneration) (Wales) Order (SI 2009/40)
The Operation of Air Services in the Community Regulations (SI 2009/41)
The Barking, Havering and Redbridge Hospitals National Health Service Trust (Establishment) Amendment Order (SI 2009/43)
The Energy Act 2008 (Commencement No. 1 and Savings) Order (SI 2009/45)
The Water (Prevention of Pollution) (Code of Good Agricultural Practice) (England) Order (SI 2009/46)
The Environmental Noise (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations (SI 2009/47)
The Education (Maintained Special Schools) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations (SI 2009/48)
The Education and Inspections Act 2006 (Commencement No. 2) (Wales) Order (SI 2009/49)
The A46 Trunk Road (Newark to Widmerpool Improvement and Slip Roads) Order (SI 2009/50)
The A52 Trunk Road (A46 Newark to Widmerpool Improvement and Slip Roads) Order (SI 2009/51)
The A46 Trunk Road (Newark to Widmerpool Improvement and Slip Roads) (Detrunking) Order (SI 2009/52)
The A52 Trunk Road (A46 Newark to Widmerpool Improvement and Slip Roads) (Detrunking) Order (SI 2009/53)
The National Health Service (Travelling Expenses and Remission of Charges) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations (SI 2009/54)
The Local Authorities (Charges for Property Searches) (Disapplication) (Wales) Order (SI 2009/55)
The Transfer of Tribunal Functions and Revenue and Customs Appeals Order (SI 2009/56)
The Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (Commencement No. 2) Order (SI 2009/58)
The Road Tunnel Safety (Amendment) Regulations (SI 2009/64)
The Wireless Telegraphy (Vehicle Based Intelligent Transport Systems) (Exemption) Regulations (SI 2009/65)
The Wireless Telegraphy (Licence Charges) (Amendment) Regulations (SI 2009/66)
OGCbuying.solutions Trading Fund (Extension and Amendment) Order (SI 2009/81)
The Pensions Act 2008 (Commencement No. 2) Order (SI 2009/82)
The Penalties for Disorderly Behaviour (Amount of Penalty) (Amendment) Order (SI 2009/83)


Whilst a loud minority get very excited when this happens through the EU nobody seems to care about a Senior Civil Servant producing and signing off on delegated legislation though. Still, it probably beats getting some 90 year old who's never held down a proper job in their life to approve it.

(Of course if you are seeking to protect Parliamentary Sovereignty you will be abstaining from the referendum as the decision should properly lie with Parliament and not with the British public and you'd be encouraging all MPs - not to mention the unelected House of Lords - to ignore whatever outcome of the referendum there is and just vote as they see fit as the duly elected/inherited/appointed as a political favour [delete as applicable] figure sees fit.)

 

[Gremlin]

Negotiate a better deal for the UK from within the EU, you say? Well the European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker thinks that no such possibility exists. He said "We have concluded a deal with the prime minister, he got the maximum he could receive, we gave the maximum we could give.
"So there will be no kind of renegotiation, nor on the agreement we found in February, nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned. Out is out."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36599300

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Negotiate a better deal for the UK from within the EU, you say? Well the European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker thinks that no such possibility exists. He said "We have concluded a deal with the prime minister, he got the maximum he could receive, we gave the maximum we could give.
"So there will be no kind of renegotiation, nor on the agreement we found in February, nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned. Out is out."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36599300

Apparently part of the deal with the PM was that Juncker was to keep his mouth shut as Cameron knew that every time he opened his mouth they'd haemorrhage votes to Leave. Juncker didn't like being gagged and didn't want to be the one who lost a country on his watch so negotiated that he could speak out in the final stretch if Remain weren't winning.

I'd take that story with more than a pinch of salt, so I mention it only as it is quite amusing and the ill-informed arguments are so depressing.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

You might want to re-read my original post in reply to SB. I never accused anyone of racism.

You're kicking no one in the midriff - the career politicians of Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson are your shining lights.

You certainly implied it or why bother to mention Britain First?
This also implies that there is some kind of link to the Leave campaign and the murder of Jo Cox which is massively out of order on your part.
You don't need to resort to this kind of thing, you normally argue your point perfectly well.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Reportedly Holland, Finland and even France will be re-considering their positions if we vote to leave.

 

[Gremlin]

Apparently part of the deal with the PM was that Juncker was to keep his mouth shut as Cameron knew that every time he opened his mouth they'd haemorrhage votes to Leave. Juncker didn't like being gagged and didn't want to be the one who lost a country on his watch so negotiated that he could speak out in the final stretch if Remain weren't winning.

I'd take that story with more than a pinch of salt, so I mention it only as it is quite amusing and the ill-informed arguments are so depressing.

I take your "apparently" story with a pinch of salt. Which I think is what you meant.

 

[rigsby]

Actually,modern politics is all about winning elections.And always has been.

Yes, which means you have to have the right leader. The public don't like Old Scruff Bags, Whinging Welshman, Dour Scots, Anonymous Adenoidal from North London and now the Left Wing Rabbit caught in the EU headlights.

The only time labour have won since the 1970's is when they had a tory agent called Blair as their leader.
When it comes to politics for someone who posts so much you know so little.:winking:

 

[MK Shrimper]

You certainly implied it or why bother to mention Britain First?
This also implies that there is some kind of link to the Leave campaign and the murder of Jo Cox which is massively out of order on your part.
You don't need to resort to this kind of thing, you normally argue your point perfectly well.

Again, I never accused anyone on here of racism. Please show me where I did.

 

[Sandbach Shrimper]

Negotiate a better deal for the UK from within the EU, you say? Well the European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker thinks that no such possibility exists. He said "We have concluded a deal with the prime minister, he got the maximum he could receive, we gave the maximum we could give.
"So there will be no kind of renegotiation, nor on the agreement we found in February, nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned. Out is out."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36599300

Juncker has been the Leave campaign's best weapon with some of the stuff he's come out with. The EU is going to spite us either way -if we leave they'll make it as difficult as possible, if we stay then every time we object to something, they'll be able to say "but your people voted for it".

If they don't want us, then screw them. They need us more than we need them.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Juncker has been the Leave campaign's best weapon with some of the stuff he's come out with. The EU is going to spite us either way -if we leave they'll make it as difficult as possible, if we stay then every time we object to something, they'll be able to say "but your people voted for it".

If they don't want us, then screw them. They need us more than we need them.

How do you work that out?

The EU is 45% of our trade.

 

[Gremlin]

Of course, if you don't like Jean-Claude Juncker's stance you could always try voting him out.

http://www.dw.com/en/hollande-juncker-raise-stakes-on-brexit/a-19348234

 

[rigsby]

How do you work that out?

The EU is 45% of our trade.

Of course that is as bad as the £350 million Brexit figure.

The EU is only 9% of our trade. 80% of everything we make is sold in Britain and another 11% to the rest of the world.

Besides we spend £68 Billion more per year in the EU than they do with us. No Business would ever want to lose their biggest customer.

Credit to project fear they have fooled a lot of people. Many people are only voting remain because of fear not because they are happy with the EU.

 

[callan]

He could be discredited or his views could be discredited?
If the former, my apologies and I clearly made a mistake in assuming you'd play the ball and not the man. If the latter, I'm having a little trouble in squaring that away with "it might be wrong".

Is it possible that it could be both?

For example if it came to light that he is in fact EU funded?, and not as impartial or independent as his video would have us believe?

He makes much about honesty, in particular with regard the leave campaign....however is there a chance that he is using his position to perpetuate his own version of the truth?



Anyway to answer your question, yes Parliament is sovereign as Brussels' authority derives from Parliament.

So our courts are a higher authority than that of the EU?

So if Parliament decides that they don't wan't a particular piece of legislation from the EU, they can simply over rule it?, in the same way they could secondary legislation as you describe below?



It's the same concept as secondary legislation, which forms the overwhelming majority of UK legislation. Much of the detail of English law is not passed by the Houses of Parliament but is instead delegated and a faceless bureaucrat (or quango) ends up filling in the all important bits and avoiding proper Parliamentary scrutiny.


For example, 2009 saw just 27 Acts of UK Parliament but over 3000 delegated pieces of secondary legislation put into law by individuals or bodies other than Parliament.




Whilst a loud minority get very excited when this happens through the EU nobody seems to care about a Senior Civil Servant producing and signing off on delegated legislation though. Still, it probably beats getting some 90 year old who's never held down a proper job in their life to approve it.

Would you agree that there is a subtle difference between her Majesty's civil service who act on behalf of an elected government which has the ability to amend / repeal any law put forward, and the EU commission?

(Of course if you are seeking to protect Parliamentary Sovereignty you will be abstaining from the referendum as the decision should properly lie with Parliament and not with the British public and you'd be encouraging all MPs - not to mention the unelected House of Lords - to ignore whatever outcome of the referendum there is and just vote as they see fit as the duly elected/inherited/appointed as a political favour [delete as applicable] figure sees fit.)

I'm not sure I'm following this last bit entirely, It was a referendum by the people that endorsed our membership in the first place....

...........

 

[callan]

How do you work that out?

The EU is 45% of our trade.

I would be very cautious using 45 per cent, it's an over inflated figure.