The EU Referendum

[Yorkshire Blue]

Suggestions on what form that might take?

Form of mandate or form of direction?

 

[superblue24]

Form of mandate or form of direction?

Form of "democratic Mandate" I think you said?

 

[callan]

Despite being a keen advocate of leaving the EU, I have yet to see from either in or out Camps a firm vision of what the UK will look like further down the road, if we stay or go.
What are our political parties plans should exit go ahead?....or indeed if we stay (more political integration?, join the Euro etc....more political union?)
Is it that some sort of status quo will exist for the UK should we choose to stay.
We have done to death the pros and cons of EU membership...but will we be well informed enough to really make a choice?

Who cares. No-one will vote for an exit.

:net::net::net::net::net::net::net::net:

Bit hard for anyone to start making statements when we still don't know when the referendum will be. I'd guess that the Tories and Labour are busy with other things. Only once we have a date will they be able to outline their post-referendum plans.

Genuinely, I can't see a No vote happening. The referendum, to me, is a waste of time and effort because there isn't a point of equipoise really. Already over 70% probability (based on odds) of staying, and I think that will continue to increase (shorten).

The outcome will be whatever voters decide, and our political parties must surely know how great a part of this project they intend us to be if you are correct and the vote is to stay.

The vote has to be this year, and regardless of month voters should be informed on what the parties proposals are based on either outcome.

It's always worth remembering where we were at the out set of all this.

For many the Leave outcome was totally unexpected, however it was based on a one off vote based on Cameron's renegotiation with the EU.

In the run up on here to the actual vote, many were scornful on the remain side that there should be no 2nd referendum....

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

So again, what did people vote for. Every time someone rubbishes an argument the answer is "well, no-one voted for that reason anyway". This isn't a dig at you specifically, it's just pointing out how ridiculous it is to say no-one voted for any reason.

I notice you don't argue with my point about accountability, which was my main point.

Accountability was/is my core reason for wanting Leave; The EU have never had their books "done" and when an accountancy firm starts finding all the slush and waste the EU stop them from going any further.
Do I want to be part of an obviously corrupt organisation where fraud is accepted so blatantly? I know it happens in all government but the EU's cost is huge and out of control.

 

[londonblue]

It's always worth remembering where we were at the out set of all this.

For many the Leave outcome was totally unexpected, however it was based on a one off vote based on Cameron's renegotiation with the EU.

In the run up on here to the actual vote, many were scornful on the remain side that there should be no 2nd referendum....

In fairness to me, my quote above was very much tongue in cheek. When being serious I said all along we would vote to leave.

 

[londonblue]

Accountability was/is my core reason for wanting Leave; The EU have never had their books "done" and when an accountancy firm starts finding all the slush and waste the EU stop them from going any further.
Do I want to be part of an obviously corrupt organisation where fraud is accepted so blatantly? I know it happens in all government but the EU's cost is huge and out of control.

It's 0.8% of our GDP apparently. That's on a par with benefit fraud from this country. So, assuming ALL the money we spend on the EU is wasted (which it clearly isn't), it's less of an issue than people realise. Agreed it's not good, but it's not as bad you people make out either.

Either way, that's a different argument to a politician lying and not being held accountable, which is what we were discussing.

 

[Bielzibubz]

What is hard to understand is what happens next for leave.

Leave needs to put forward a plan and that plan needs to be approved or rejected.

This is not complicated.

Approved by who for crying out loud? We vote people into power to make these kinds of decisions for us.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Then why do you think people voted leave? Plenty of vox-pops on television with people banging on about "too many immigrants taking our jobs" when free movement of people will be one thing that will have to remain if the UK wants access to the free market.

So 'plenty' and 'I know some people' are grounds for a re run are they?

And why will free movement of people have to remain in it's present guise? Because the EU and Merkel say's so.

 

[londonblue]

So 'plenty' and 'I know some people' are grounds for a re run are they?

And why will free movement of people have to remain in it's present guise? Because the EU and Merkel say's so.

Depends on whether you want to trade with the EU or not really, and what kind of deal you want should you decide you do want to trade with them.

 

[Bielzibubz]

So again, what did people vote for? Every time someone rubbishes an argument the answer is "well, no-one voted for that reason anyway". This isn't a dig at you specifically, it's just pointing out how ridiculous it is to say no-one voted for any reason.

I notice you don't argue with my point about accountability, which was my main point.

Politics is riddled with those that aren't held to account for their actions. Exactly how would you hold them to account and how would that change the the future?

Again, if you need me to spell out to you why individuals voted a certain way (leave) then this argument really will just drag on and on and on.

Let me simplify things. A financial annalist or trader working in the city will have different priorities and beliefs than a person from Wigan trying to make ends meet on a living wage and will thus will have voted differently for different reasons. Very simplistic I know but hopefully you get my point that the reasons the 17 million voted leave and many and varied. Yes the immigration card played a part but so did the sovereignty and governance issue. They are just two of many.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Depends on whether you want to trade with the EU or not really, and what kind of deal you want should you decide you do want to trade with them.

So, because the EU say's we have to accept free movement of people in it's present form you think the British government have no option but to accept that do you? I think perhaps you represent a small portion of the reason why this country has lost so much of it's identity and national authority these past 50 odd years.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Depends on whether you want to trade with the EU or not really, and what kind of deal you want should you decide you do want to trade with them.

The "free movement" of people is another simplistic term being banded about when really the issue is more complicated involving unrestricted, allow anyone, with no discretion , access to services, access to benefits, access to housing, right to deport etc ARE just a few of the sections that are debatable and can go into the pot for Brexit talks.
How many low skill migrants would come if they had no entitlement to "top up", housing, and needed health insurance etc; plus when a US of A entry refusal/deport with criminal record, check was in use?

 

[londonblue]

Politics is riddled with those that aren't held to account for their actions. Exactly how would you hold them to account and how would that change the the future?

Again, if you need me to spell out to you why individuals voted a certain way (leave) then this argument really will just drag on and on and on.

Let me simplify things. A financial annalist or trader working in the city will have different priorities and beliefs than a person from Wigan trying to make ends meet on a living wage and will thus will have voted differently for different reasons. Very simplistic I know but hopefully you get my point that the reasons the 17 million voted leave and many and varied. Yes the immigration card played a part but so did the sovereignty and governance issue. They are just two of many.

By voting them out. But we can't do that in this instance.

As for the rest, see my previous suggestion...

 

[superblue24]

By voting them out. But we can't do that in this instance.

As for the rest, see my previous suggestion...

By the same token, perhaps many voted "out" due to the EU's accountability or lack thereof.....?

Was certainly a major factor in my decision.

 

[londonblue]

By the same token, perhaps many voted "out" due to the EU's accountability or lack thereof.....?

Was certainly a major factor in my decision.

Different argument. That's nothing to do with the discussion around holding people like Bojo and Farridge accountable for the lies they told the electorate.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Form of "democratic Mandate" I think you said?

Such as a referendum.

 

[superblue24]

Different argument. That's nothing to do with the discussion around holding people like Bojo and Farridge accountable for the lies they told the electorate.

Different argument because it is a different argument? Or different argument because you feel one way about certain people being held accountable for their actions but don't feel that voters who feel the same way about the EU should be doing the same?

 

[rigsby]

By the same token, perhaps many voted "out" due to the EU's accountability or lack thereof.....?

Was certainly a major factor in my decision.

Indeed it was. I was in Greece last week staying with a friend who has lived and worked there for 20 years. Listening to his Greek friends talk about the missing EU money from uncompleted projects.

We all know about the ridiculous bank bail outs but it appears that even all the EU funded infrastructure projects are also totally un policed. A motorway from the coast to Athens, Desalination plant and recycling centres have all been funded by the EU and none of it has been anywhere near completed.

The fact the some on here are happy to turn a blind eye because it suits them as this moment is no argument to remain

The good news is that there are 17million of us who have enough integrity to do something about it.

 

[MK Shrimper]

And why will free movement of people have to remain in it's present guise? Because the EU and Merkel say's so.

Yes exactly. The club that your so eager to leave holds all the cards.

 

[rigsby]

Yes exactly. The club that your so eager to leave holds all the cards.

MK totally misses the point again. The people who spend 68 billion a year in that club get to call the shots.