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SUFC: The Future SUFC up for sale

Our hopes and visions for the rebirth of Southend United, plus any plans published by the consortium for discussion
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I see a few people mentioning possible building a ground somewhere else if an agreement can't be made but where is there any space big enough of even somewhere you could knock a building down and replace it.
I think it’s a case of if there was no prior agreement on the sales of FF and what was being built, then both sides would need in negotiations the threat to walk away? Which in the case of the club would have to be that or ground share. Of course it’s a stretch. And actually it would “kill” both parties which is why it wouldn’t happen. But the threat of it would need to be there and made real- which is again why both parties would or should want something agreed in advance if not the full agreement…
 
Mate, stop stirring.

It’s funny, you’re so like a ghost from the past on here.

The above post is a load of supposition and a feeble attempt to make Kimura look somehow dodgy and skint. You don’t know where the funds are coming from, or on what basis. Most football takeovers aren’t paid for on a debit card. You don’t know what level of risk there will be in whatever is agreed. You don’t know the funds are in the Caymans.

What are you trying to achieve by posting that nonsense?
My apologies if I have upset you .
 
Am I the only one who thinks that literally nothing about this makes sense? Without FF what value is there in the club, why would anyone pay for it? Presumably one of Kimura's funds will be investing - why when they specialise in commodities?
Maybe I am dim, but I just don't get any of it.
Maybe there is a copper seam or something under RH we don't know about.
 
You know more than myself then, could you give me an example of what Ron Martin has built ? Genuine question in his proven capacity as property developer
I saw him recently buidling a beautiful, 3 sided sandcastle down the beach. He even engaged some local youngsters to help with build, with a promise of an ice cream. I, like many interested observers, kept warning him he was building too close to the sea and the tide would be a problem for him. The tide was out so Ron simply said ' I see no sea'. Sadly what we all predicted would happen, soon happened. Ps the kids never got their ice creams.
 
Ok, well, as you've asked nicely and your post has been liked by 8 people...

And with apologies to anyone who knows this already, as I said before, this is really not intended to be patronising or condescending, and it doesn't really matter what SHOULD be the situation, this actually IS the situation. Legally.

It really will help I think if there is more understanding of what is and isn't Ron's debt, and the difference between individuals and limited companies.

What is Ron's debt?

Probably nothing. Unless there are any personal guarantees he's given, I would imagine the vast majority of debt is either secured by land or owed to Ron himself, as he is the largest creditor. This means that most of the money owed by the club is owed to him. If he wants to, he can put the club into administration, the administrators (chosen by Ron) will sell the club and all the monies received will be divided out pro rata between the creditors (after payment of football related debts which I think have to be settled in full.

What about Southend United Ltd?

This is the club that facing the winding up petition and, as I understand it, holds the membership of the NL and all the players registrations. It receives all the income (TV money, prize money, sponsorship, ticket sales etc.) and also has to pay all the expenses (rent, rates, utilities, wages, taxes, legal and accountants fees etc.). The assets and income of the company must always equal or exceed the liabilities and expenses otherwise the company is insolvent. That's not allowed and the company is not allowed to trade if that happens.

Because it is a limited company, all liability is limited. That means that if the company dies, the shareholders don't die with it. I'll give an example.

If someone is, say, a freelancer, they probably don't carry any stock and don't need separate premises to work from as they are essentially selling their time and expertise. They can work from home or on the premises of the clients they freelance for. Most freelancers will be sole traders. This means that they are personally responsible for all tax on monies earned through their freelance work. If they make a mistake in their work that isn't covered by either their own insurance or their client's insurance, they can be personally sued and they could lose absolutely everything, house, car, the lot. However, the risks of that happening to a freelancer are quite low and setting up a company is a bit of a faff, it's harder in theory to get money out as it can only be done via PAYE or dividends, all of which are taxed at source, which makes it far less attractive and much more admin-heavy.

Once a business carries stock or owns premises etc. it is probably more advisable for the to be a limited company. This means if anything goes wrong, the company takes the hit and the director/shareholder is protected. They can't be personally pursued for any company debts and they are free to start something else.

That doesn't sound very fair!

Well, I can see why that may be perceived to be the case, but if it wasn't then no-one would ever start anything up because it would be too risky. Plus there would be no businesses that would be able to employ people as no-one would set anything up in the first place, knowing that one day they would potentially lose everything by being made personally liable for any debts.

So when people say "Ron should pay the wages" they aren't his to pay; it's the club's responsibility. And if the club has no money (or a bank account is frozen) then they literally can't pay them. And if by paying them they would potentially be trading insolvently, the such action could be the death knell of the club.

This is why the issue of the season tickets was so important, as it is the only income the club gets in the summer. It could well be that paying the wages for everyone in full meant the club was trading insolvently, which means no more club.

So why doesn't Ron put more in?

He put over £2m in at the end of Feb. I expect this was calculated to see the club through to the summer but fell short, possibly because there were fewer season ticket sales than anticipated. There will be a limit as to how much of his own personal wealth or family assets he will be prepared to risk losing. I don't expect, when he started all this, he thought we would still be at this point 25 years on.

Why don't the other directors put money in?

It depends whether or not they are shareholders. If they are just directors, they have no obligation to do anything at all as they are not financially interested in the club unless they choose to lend it money. That money is then held in a Director's Loan account and can be withdrawn, tax free, at any time (as long as the money is there to do so). Even as shareholders, there is no obligation to do anything unless the company asks them to (note - the company; not Ron) and even then I'm not 100% sure they are bound to do it. Some of the directors will have already put money in, of course.

Let me quote a personal - and very simple - example. My mother died a couple of years ago and I inherited her estate. Part of that was a flat and I put this into a company. The reason for doing this was because the flat was was rented out, and I am a 40% taxpayer, so any rent would be subject to 40% tax. It cost me a few grand in stamp duty to put it into the company and the admin fees of setting up and running it, but the upshot is that there is no Capital Gains Tax (28%), if the company sells the flat the tax is Corporation Tax that is payable (24%) and any income (less expenses) is also taxed at 24%>

Meanwhile, I have "sold" the flat to the company and the amount of the sale sits in my loan account. So I can take that out, tax free, at any time (obviously I can't as the flat would have to be sold to do it, but you get the point). But it does mean that if I want to draw some money, I can take it from the rent, as opposed to registering for PAYE and drawing a salary (taxed at source at 40%) or taking a dividend (can't remember the tax rate on this).

If I hadn't done this, I would have a flat that I could personally sell, but which was generating income payable at a much higher tax rate, plus there would be higher taxes to pay on sale.

This is a really simple example as I say - but extrapolate that up to the SUFC model and Ron's myriad of companies.

There will be company after company that will have been involved to generate the money used to keep SUFC solvent, probably through a series of loans via Ron's directors loan account but those assets must have come from somewhere. Similarly, as he is the landlord of the ground he is perfectly entitled to charge rent (which he is; he's just not collecting it).

When he therefore says that he has lost X million, he probably has; plus the opportunity cost of investing that money in something else. I'll bet he wishes he'd never ever started.

Hope this helps... I also hope this is all done soon and we still have a club to support on Wednesday.

So don't think that new owners Kimura (or whoever) are going to be doing this for the love of the club or the love of football; they have investors who will want a return.
Thank you for confirming my own understanding of the situation. Also hopefully the penny will drop with those that think RM has no position of strength in all this.
 
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Am I the only one who thinks that literally nothing about this makes sense? Without FF what value is there in the club, why would anyone pay for it? Presumably one of Kimura's funds will be investing - why when they specialise in commodities?
Maybe I am dim, but I just don't get any of it.
Maybe there is a copper seam or something under RH we don't know about.

Staff wages are stashed under RH
 
Just to throw something into the mix.

Maybe another way things could progress - Kimura agree to pay off the immediate debts due to keep the club afloat without buying it, whilst negotiations over the sale of the club and FF continue. Less financial risk to Kimura than buying the club and then failing to reach agreement on FF.
The risk in the above is that Kimura would be putting money in the same pot that’s been running dry, with no guarantee about very much going forwards. They might never go on to buy the club in that scenario but they’ve just removed all the financial pressure on Ron. They might never see that money again.

If trickier issues are somehow parked I think they will definitely want to buy SUFC and get it back on its feet now as a minimum.

This is all speculation though, by all of us. It’s probably not helping anyone’s blood pressure! For what it’s worth I think there will be a takeover but there may be some further issues to tie down later, likely all related to Fossetts.

This is still only a guess on my part as like all of us I don’t know anything covered by the NDA. These guys aren’t mugs though, and they have plenty of experience (lawyers and advisers) on their side so I’d think it pretty unlikely they would sign anything which did not adequately mitigate the risks of whatever approach is agreed.
 
My issue is that it’s too far from Southend City Centre - it’s Southend United not Rayleigh FC or North Benfleet United.
Please, not a shed in the middle of nowhere. Oxford did that, and that has not turned out so well. It needs to be within walking distance of a station - ideally one in Southend.
Would it be completely daft to just redevelop RH and sell FF?
 
My issue is that it’s too far from Southend City Centre - it’s Southend United not Rayleigh FC or North Benfleet United.
There are a few clubs with grounds away from the city/town centre, Stevenage, Northampton, Leeds, etc. As long as transport is good then as long as it’s still in the area I don’t see a problem.
 
If this is the case then it’s time for the councils to really step up.
They can make it clear that 16k will not be authorised as the additional flats will put too much pressure on the infrastructure.
They want/need the extra housing for their targets so this is a total non-starter
 
The Ladybird book of house building.

Chapter 1

Man A (also known as Ron) buys some land and gets planning permission to build house on that land. He is known as developer

Man B (also known as Bob) buys that land and builds the house. He his known as a builder.

Ron can also employ Bob to build on his land and sell the end product and is still be known as a developer .

Bob can cut out Ron and be known as builder who does bit of developing.

Ron and Bob can also do the whole project as a joint enterprise. However be warned children Ron will probably fall out with Bob over payment and it will all end up in court.
 
They want/need the extra housing for their targets so this is a total non-starter
Yep. And although people might say there are no compulsory government targets, councils are acutely aware that they need properties to replace those that are sold yearly under RTB.
 
Not at all, but I would like an answer to my question please?

And another thought occurs - are you still sponsoring the club?
The only thing I possess is a crystal ball . There is certainly going to be some good news coming soon for someone linked to the zone but I have no intention of telling Zoners who that person is . You will just have to trust my word on that .
 
I'm pretty sure he built (or his companies did) several pockets in Benfleet - Martins Mews and Elounda Court (notice the names?) for instance. Unfortunately, the records on Castle Point's planning portal don't go back far enough. Also pretty sure that he's involved in development off the Chase/Wensley Road. He was spotted in the chamber at a recent planning debate.
Big time Charlie! twenty houses in Benfleet doe not make Martin a property developer,
At best it makes him a small time builder with a massive over extended ego
 
The only thing I possess is a crystal ball . There is certainly going to be some good news coming soon for someone linked to the zone but I have no intention of telling Zoners who that person is . You will just have to trust my word on that .
Is it me? Lol. For calling out a couple of new members who were stirring things up and were just locals opposed to the Fossetts Farm development. They didn't want all the lorries going to and from the sight, and didn't want the increased traffic and traffic jams in the area if it was built with the extra people and families moving in. And of course a few Thousand fans flooding the area on match days.
 
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