Student tuition fees

[Tangled up in Blue]

Now come on Barnababy thats a pretty poor response for a chap of your standing,my rant was about two pricks dishonouring the war dead,they my exiled Spanish Shrimper are the scum,as for the student who got whacked,very nasty ouch.

Tony,
While I certainly don't condone either of the actions you mentioned, I personally feel that the hospitalisation of a young student for a three hour operation, requiring brain surgery, is a far greater crime and I sincerely hope that the perpetrator(s) is/are charged and convicted if found guilty.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I'm willing to wager to a charity of your choice that it won't.

And for a separate discussion what was wrong with the premise of the Community Charge?[/QUOTE]

Harry,
Since you asked so nicely I'll try and answer by giving you a personal example.
Some years ago now, when I was still eligible to vote in General Elections in the UK,I used to cast my vote by proxy.I remember having a long conversation with an intelligent mate of mine(who posts on SZ)where he asked me- in all seriousness-whether he would be liable to pay any poll tax after casting a vote on my behalf.
Now we're talking here about a graduate, who works in the City,is very much a man of the world and is worth a lot more on paper, than I'll ever be.
This shows,quite nicely I think, the amount of ignorance,mis-information etc that there was surrounding the Poll tax at the time.If middle class professionals(an accountant in this case) didn't really have a clue about it,what chance was there for the rest of the "community?"

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

Tony,
While I certainly don't condone either of the actions you mentioned, I personally feel that the hospitalisation of a young student for a three hour operation, requiring brain surgery, is a far greater crime and I sincerely hope that the perpetrator(s) is/are charged and convicted if found guilty.

Hold on a minute, this is the 4th protest by my reckoning and every single one has turned violent; with policemen treated in hospital, the future head of state attacked and national icons disrespected. My sympathy is wearing thin with these jerks, and if one has to eat truncheon for undoubtedly being in front row mouthing off at the authorities then **** him and his mother.

Didn't see you writing on here in sympathy when one solitary copper was cornered by hundreds of the mob when they trashed the Tory HQ. Poor sod was only trying to do his job.

 

[southendkid]

Hold on a minute, this is the 4th protest by my reckoning and every single one has turned violent; with policemen treated in hospital, the future head of state attacked and national icons disrespected. My sympathy is wearing thin with these jerks, and if one has to eat truncheon for undoubtedly being in front row mouthing off at the authorities then **** him and his mother.

Didn't see you writing on here in sympathy when one solitary copper was cornered by hundreds of the mob when they trashed the Tory HQ. Poor sod was only trying to do his job.

So your logic is that because a small minority ruin any protest that makes it ok for protesters to get injured? Yes its bad that policemen have been injured and a war memorial has been disrespected, but I don't understand how you can decide that the majority of those at the protest would say that it is acceptable to do that. As for Charles and Camilla, its hard to believe it was that serious when the media is speculating if Camilla was 'poked with a stick' (BBCs words not mine.) Yes the police were trying to do their job, but most of the protesters were just making their point heard, either way neither side deserves injury.

 

[chadded]

Tony,
While I certainly don't condone either of the actions you mentioned, I personally feel that the hospitalisation of a young student for a three hour operation, requiring brain surgery, is a far greater crime and I sincerely hope that the perpetrator(s) is/are charged and convicted if found guilty.

You don't know a crime has occurred. As someone who has had to use a baton in a serious situation, I can tell you that it is quite easy to hit the intended target (for target, don't read person, but body part, ie, arm or thigh) but that it is equally easy for accidents to occur. Yes, I will almost always stand up for the police, but I will also play devils advocate, and once skill that all people should have, but that Police have to have more of, is objectiveness. It is easy to say how something happenend, proving how and why it happened is not so easy. Yes a student got hit, but was it because of a mental copper giving it large, or because he was pushed into the path of the baton and neither could stop/ move out of the way?

Anyway,. back to the Student scum. The bottom line is the Government cannot afford to bankroll university education anymore. That is not the current government's fault. What the Government should be doing, is promoting, and offering their own, sponsorship schemes, whereby you work for the company in your time off, and after university, you work a minimum term.

If the Goverment were to back down, aside from the weakness of it, where would the money come from? Higher taxes? Less money on other education? And what would happen then.... more protesting and rioting. University education is a choice, not a god given right.

 

[osymandus]

You don't know a crime has occurred. As someone who has had to use a baton in a serious situation, I can tell you that it is quite easy to hit the intended target (for target, don't read person, but body part, ie, arm or thigh) but that it is equally easy for accidents to occur. Yes, I will almost always stand up for the police, but I will also play devils advocate, and once skill that all people should have, but that Police have to have more of, is objectiveness. It is easy to say how something happenend, proving how and why it happened is not so easy. Yes a student got hit, but was it because of a mental copper giving it large, or because he was pushed into the path of the baton and neither could stop/ move out of the way?

Anyway,. back to the Student scum. The bottom line is the Government cannot afford to bankroll university education anymore. That is not the current government's fault. What the Government should be doing, is promoting, and offering their own, sponsorship schemes, whereby you work for the company in your time off, and after university, you work a minimum term.

If the Goverment were to back down, aside from the weakness of it, where would the money come from? Higher taxes? Less money on other education? And what would happen then.... more protesting and rioting. University education is a choice, not a god given right.

However they can afford it by closing the tax loop holes as has already been pointed out Voadfone tax bill of £6 Billion would remove the need for these cuts. Mobile phones are not a god given right , and neither is the business to provide one.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Hold on a minute, this is the 4th protest by my reckoning and every single one has turned violent; with policemen treated in hospital, the future head of state attacked and national icons disrespected. My sympathy is wearing thin with these jerks, and if one has to eat truncheon for undoubtedly being in front row mouthing off at the authorities then **** him and his mother.

Didn't see you writing on here in sympathy when one solitary copper was cornered by hundreds of the mob when they trashed the Tory HQ. Poor sod was only trying to do his job.

IIRC, SZ was down when the first major demo at Millbank took place.I'm not aware of the incident you're referring to here, but I do believe that the lout who threw a fire extinguisher off the Millbank roof deserves to do time for his criminally dangerous act of vandalism.

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

So your logic is that because a small minority ruin any protest that makes it ok for protesters to get injured? Yes its bad that policemen have been injured and a war memorial has been disrespected, but I don't understand how you can decide that the majority of those at the protest would say that it is acceptable to do that. As for Charles and Camilla, its hard to believe it was that serious when the media is speculating if Camilla was 'poked with a stick' (BBCs words not mine.) Yes the police were trying to do their job, but most of the protesters were just making their point heard, either way neither side deserves injury.

No my logic is, with every protest turning violent, the sensible protesters (and lecturers) should change tact and stop fueling these situations with said protests. Luckily the police have today said that water cannons may be used to break up future protests. If the threat of a shower doesn't stop the students, I don't know what will.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

<

Firstly, you "receive", well in your words anyway. If you wish to play semantics, then I suggest you make sure you get it right your end<

To "receive" a grant is an approximate synonym of to be "awarded" one.To "achieve" a grant indicates some sort of merit which is entirely inappropriate here.Please don't attempt to lecture me on semantics.This is a subject area which I've studied at MA(TESOL)level.

<Secondly, fair enough. Most of us have, but as a graduate I'd expect you to pay above average<

Graduates who go into teaching(or the social services for example)are unlikely to be high earners.

<Thirdly, last I heard, Spain and France aren't this country. It's easy to be picky on semantics (see point one) but maybe you should learn to read thoroughly yourself?<

The last time I looked both Spain and France were fully paid up members of the EU.(AS you can see from this reply while I can't multiquote,my reading skills are adequate enough.

<Fourthly, by paying tax in an EU state you're helping the British government, but only in so far as we don't have to pay an extra subsidy to help them. I wont argue against it being beneficial to this country, but it's tenuous to say the least

<

See my previous quote from Othello:-"I have done the state some service."
Whether I like it or not(mostly I don't)my undergraduate students,the business people I work with,even my neighbours etc, all regard me as some sort of unofficial representative of GB.I don't think this is at all "tenuous"-it's a fact of life.

FYI,I actually started this thread to get some discussion going on student tuition fees and last week's student demo and not to explain what I have personally contributed to the British state.

 

[chadded]

No my logic is, with every protest turning violent, the sensible protesters (and lecturers) should change tact and stop fueling these situations with said protests. Luckily the police have today said that water cannons may be used to break up future protests. If the threat of a shower doesn't stop the students, I don't know what will.

Hopefully the ''water'' in the cannon's is actually the copper's **** after a heavy post shift **** up...

 

[GBJ]

So your logic is that because a small minority ruin any protest that makes it ok for protesters to get injured? Yes its bad that policemen have been injured and a war memorial has been disrespected, but I don't understand how you can decide that the majority of those at the protest would say that it is acceptable to do that.

Unfortunately common sense is lost on the majority of people these days including those with/who want super-duper degrees. Lets think about it for a moment....

Since the first protest, little skirmishes have been kicking off, left right and centre at every protest. If you decide to go to the next one, then you're either a very thick individual (who probably deserves a slap) or going for the sole purpose of getting stuck right in. If you want to avoid the trouble, then stay away? Is it really that difficult to understand lol?

That might sound a little cut and dried, but it is simple reality. If people can't grasp that fact, then they have to find out the hard way

 

[GBJ]

No my logic is, with every protest turning violent, the sensible protesters (and lecturers) should change tact and stop fueling these situations with said protests. Luckily the police have today said that water cannons may be used to break up future protests. If the threat of a shower doesn't stop the students, I don't know what will.

Mace, tear gas, rubber bullets... take your pick!

 

[Stats]

Mace, tear gas, rubber bullets... take your pick!

Bull whips would certainly get the protesters retreating.

 

[Hotman]

Soap will do the job.

 

[canveyshrimper]

I'm willing to wager to a charity of your choice that it won't.

And for a separate discussion what was wrong with the premise of the Community Charge?[/QUOTE]

Harry,
Since you asked so nicely I'll try and answer by giving you a personal example.
Some years ago now, when I was still eligible to vote in General Elections in the UK,I used to cast my vote by proxy.I remember having a long conversation with an intelligent mate of mine(who posts on SZ)where he asked me- in all seriousness-whether he would be liable to pay any poll tax after casting a vote on my behalf.
Now we're talking here about a graduate, who works in the City,is very much a man of the world and is worth a lot more on paper, than I'll ever be.
This shows,quite nicely I think, the amount of ignorance,mis-information etc that there was surrounding the Poll tax at the time.If middle class professionals(an accountant in this case) didn't really have a clue about it,what chance was there for the rest of the "community?"

I think this will make an interesting discussion as a separate thread, however I don't understand how a person who has graduated and worked in the city was not cognisant of the premise of the community charge or poll tax. The basic idea is absolutely fair, all adults in work make a contribution to the local exchequer, simples!! This is where it fell down as those that had contributed the square root of sod all for donkeys years were the most vociferous in their objections. An example why should a single person make the same contribution as to say a household of 4 adults all in work. That to me is monumentally unfair rather like the current council tax. The major flaw in the community charge was that it wasn't equitable in the fact that those that earned more paid the same, when in all probability their contribution should have been higher.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Unfortunately common sense is lost on the majority of people these days including those with/who want super-duper degrees. Lets think about it for a moment....

Since the first protest, little skirmishes have been kicking off, left right and centre at every protest. If you decide to go to the next one, then you're either a very thick individual (who probably deserves a slap) or going for the sole purpose of getting stuck right in. If you want to avoid the trouble, then stay away? Is it really that difficult to understand lol?

That might sound a little cut and dried, but it is simple reality. If people can't grasp that fact, then they have to find out the hard way

The vast majority of students on last week's demo(and I'm sure the other three too)were there to make an entirely legitimate and peaceful protest against Coalition plans to double (or in some cases triple)future tuition fees.
According to numerous first hand accounts, many students(and other protestors) were prevented from leaving the demo for anything up to 6/8 hours afterwards.This police tactic of "kettling"-denying peaceful protestors the right to leave a demonstration when they chose,denying them access to toilets and food and drink on a bitterly cold day was IMO a major contributor to the violence on the day and has no place in a civilised society.

 

[chadded]

The vast majority of students on last week's demo(and I'm sure the other three too)were there to make an entirely legitimate and peaceful protest against Coalition plans to double (or in some cases triple)future tuition fees.
According to numerous first hand accounts, many students(and other protestors) were prevented from leaving the demo for anything up to 6/8 hours afterwards.This police tactic of "kettling"-denying peaceful protestors the right to leave a demonstration when they chose,denying them access to toilets and food and drink on a bitterly cold day was IMO a major contributor to the violence on the day and has no place in a civilised society.

Unfortunately it can be very difficult to differenciate (sp?) between peaceful protesters and the trouble makers. If you don't herd them like cattle, then they will do exactly the same, funnilly enough, as unherded cattle, and spread to the four corners and then cause bigger problems...

 

[OAJS]

Try not to be so narrow minded some of you, as someone who attended one of the protests. As a student studying A levels, which in the real world up against experienced individuals like most competitors and most of you would be, I don't stand a lot of chance of finding employment, so I am turning to higher education.

In this said protest, the intentions were peaceful, this was the protest in which innocent protesters were "kettled" as the minority were out to "get one over on the police/government/whoever, what those outside the protest did see was a Police van vandalised, a bus stop burnt down, and a fencing panel rammed against a police line. What wasn't shown was protesters passing out from lack of room or lack of hydration, or suffering from hypothermia. I strongly disagree with the violence and vandalism, the lack of respect for monuments that represent our history, including the throwing of a fire extinguisher off the roof at the first protest, these people deserve the justice of their actions, but to turn a blind eye to the majority who were out to support their want for a better education, even willing to invest in the hope of bettering their prospects and this countries is foolish. Now put yourselves into this situation, you could have travelled a fair distance to voice your opinion, only to be stopped, put into "containment" in the cold without food or water, how would you react? Surely must've sparked some more to turn violent. Personally didn't leave the kettle until 10 past 8 while having my details taken on the way out.

As for the "irony" of

Ironic that most of the student protesters aren't even going to be affected by the rise, as by the time it comes in, most of their education will be complete....

As for this, these students were there to support their Universities departments, as due to the University cuts that are now in place, some face closure. This includes a mate of mine's course, who is studying Physics and is being funded by the Army, now being from that area yourself, wouldn't you like to be in the safe and capable hands of someone who has had a first rate education, rather than someone who has come from a budget course due to lack of funding.

Judging the majority by the minority has clouded the meaning behind the whole thing.

 

[Rayleigh boy]

watch the you tube stuff - they were trapped in Parliament Square and beaten up - time after time you hear the same thing people pleading with the cops to be allowed to go home - a absolute disgrace and probably a plot to smear them with violent anarchist mob tag -I konw the diffreence between anarchist mob and a bunch of decent young people -

watch the stuff - its our children getting done in by the metropolitan police cos it suits Cameroons dark friends - putting Charles in there ? an accident ??????

terrible days in my country

 

[southendkid]

Putting Charles in there ? an accident ??????

That is a good question, why would Charles decide to drive through a protest? I smell a conspiracy.
The protest has unfortunately given the Con Dems a tool to use, they can manipulate the protests to make it look like every protester is a common thug, and that means that people are going to side with the Tories and disregard the student's viewpoint, whoever is right when you stop looking at who is right and decide who is correct based on how they are perceived in the media you know something's gone wrong.