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religious

Absolutely right of course. Most of these things are man made or as a result of man's intervention. In the case of paedophiles, rapists and such like, these are people with a moral imbalance. In some cases this will be genetic, but in others it can safely be said it is down to man's interference somewhere along the line.

Unfortunately for me, this is the main point at which me and religion conflict. If there is one flaw in religion it is this. I personally feel the whole "sins are man made etc" is a terrible excuse and that religion really has no way of answering this.

If God is almighty he would not let these type of things occur - whether man made or not. No pure power can allow an innocent child to be beaten and bruised just because of "freedom of man". To me, if thats true, then religion is the biggest immorality there is.

Afterall, if absolute power corrupts absolutely, then where does that leave God?
 
Surely this is confusing belief with religion. Believing in a 'higher power' is one thing. But Religion's are a set of rules to live by created by man.

There was more to his arguement than that, but it went on for about a months worth of lessons. Far too much to get into one post!

Basically though, no it's not. His point was that when you strip away all of the baggage that religion has aquired over the years, it is fundamentally just a belief. If you believe in something (paraphrasing something that OBL has said previously) then it doesn't need justifying.

Roughly his point anyway.
 
Unfortunately for me, this is the main point at which me and religion conflict. If there is one flaw in religion it is this. I personally feel the whole "sins are man made etc" is a terrible excuse and that religion really has no way of answering this.

If God is almighty he would not let these type of things occur - whether man made or not. No pure power can allow an innocent child to be beaten and bruised just because of "freedom of man". To me, if thats true, then religion is the biggest immorality there is.

Afterall, if absolute power corrupts absolutely, then where does that leave God?

Where did God or anybody say they were the answer to everything,this is up to you I believe Jesus said....Religion stinks as I have said before...Of course most sins are man made...You are looking for a controlling God that gives nobody a choice. Surely that would be no life....Power, what does that mean, it is all relative to your own surroundings.....
 
I am a total athiest and believe the science is FAR more interesting and exciting, however as I've said, each to their own as long as its not enforced on anyone.

But this God bloke if he's all powerful, omnipotent and the creator of everything - who created him? And who created God's God? Ad infinitum.
 
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I do like how some topics sleep for a while but you know that they will have an inevitable return. It seems that there are a lot of views on here aired by people who have not been present on one of these previously.

I think, when debating any point, predicting an outcome or trying to explain human action, it is invaluable to put yourself in the same situation. Pick out your incentives, threats and plans from the perspective of someone else and then rationalise what course of action you must take. This is probably what makes me most cynical about most forms of religion. I'm aware that this is also the counter-argument to suggest one God but religions miles apart have so many common themes that I can't help but believe human intervention must have been prevalent, manipulative and divisive.

In theory, I'm happy to believe in the existence of a divine being because of the chances of an Earth full of free-thinking creatures being so slim but then infinity is a long time in which it could have occurred. When looking upon something you can't fully comprehend, it's often easy to overlook certain factors which you could never be aware of. For all I know, you may get a fully functioning earth every time you have a Big Bang but that thought is largely a product of a world which adapts to change.

However, my main suspicion on the subject of religion is that even if a divine being does exist, the message has been corrupted by human interpretation. I honestly don't think I have time nor inclination to write a complete summary of my thoughts although one day may have to. One recent concern I had was on the subject of morality.

If I was living many years ago in a society with dubious morals and a simplistic view of the world, it would seem sensible to create some form of body to help guide choices and teach a sense of morality to the world. If I was to do that, first of all, I would make an authority who could never be questioned and secondly I would make a set of rules that conformed generally with simple right/wrong beliefs but also included ills which may affect weakness of the human character. The specific point that sprung to mind (hardly surprising given my occupation) was gambling.

Having distanced myself from religion somewhat, I feel as though I am now defining my own sense of right and wrong based on gut instinct, consideration of myself in someone else's position and reaction of friends. Fortunately, most Christian morals fit in with this but I've never yet understood how gambling can be included in this. The UK society has a bizarre approach to gambling. Phrases such as "If I was a gambling man", "x has to be favourite here" and "against the odds" are all common phrases in the language and most of the country has bet in the last year on 'clean' gambling such as the lottery. It is, however, widely frowned upon and if you tell someone you've placed 300 bets in a year, they suddenly start wndering if you're falling in to some sort of immoral trap.
The same goes for poker which seems to be judged as a deeply immoral pastime but the murky past can't help it at all. It seems as though the only constant between gambling activities is the unknown variation in outcomes which makes the judgement of gambling all the more inexplaicable to me when other activities such as trading on the stock exchange are encouraged with no religious objection.

Anyway, I digress somewhat. I've not ruled out religion at all and i think in the right hands, it is a useful set of moral guidelines but in the main, it seems like an excellent tool for "the weak to control the strong" and large parts supported by the modern day church seem at times ridiculous beyond belief.

The video below actually sums up my thoughts pretty well (you'll need sound and not really the video to be honest).

Youtube Dan le Sac vid
 
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I am a total athiest and believe the science is FAR more interesting and exciting, however as I've said, each to their own as long as its not enforced on anyone.

But this God bloke if he's all powerful, omnipotent and the creator of everything - who created him? Ad infinitum.

Why did he have to be created..this would go on the theory that people invent things.Nothing is invented .all the things have always been there, people just learned to put them in the right place..How is he all powerful if he/she gives you the freedom to live your life as you chose....I would call that Love.

As for who created him.We are but specks on this earth , why do we have the audacity to think we know it all...I doubt humans will ever know...I do get pished off with people though who think this is the end of the line, there is nothing more to find out...the 2000's people have sussed it all.

Never in a 1000 years future have we touched the surface of the creation.it is as Stephen Hawking say's these day's a matter of perception..
 
Why did he have to be created..this would go on the theory that people invent things.Nothing is invented .all the things have always been there, people just learned to put them in the right place..How is he all powerful if he/she gives you the freedom to live your life as you chose....I would call that Love.

As for who created him.We are but specks on this earth , why do we have the audacity to think we know it all...I doubt humans will ever know...I do get pished off with people though who think this is the end of the line, there is nothing more to find out...the 2000's people have sussed it all.

Never in a 1000 years future have we touched the surface of the creation.it is as Stephen Hawking say's these day's a matter of perception..

John, my son's picked philosophy for one of his A levels, can I point him in your direction please at some point in the next two years?
 
I am a total athiest and believe the science is FAR more interesting and exciting, however as I've said, each to their own as long as its not enforced on anyone.

But this God bloke if he's all powerful, omnipotent and the creator of everything - who created him? And who created God's God? Ad infinitum.

The one that gets me with this God bloke is that in The Old Testament he is a vindictive, "if I don't get my own way, I'll kill you all", nasty piece of work. He then has a kid, in The New Testament, and suddenly he is an all round good guy, who is love, and who is peace. Why is that?
 
Why did he have to be created..this would go on the theory that people invent things.Nothing is invented .all the things have always been there, people just learned to put them in the right place..How is he all powerful if he/she gives you the freedom to live your life as you chose....I would call that Love.

As for who created him.We are but specks on this earth , why do we have the audacity to think we know it all...I doubt humans will ever know...I do get pished off with people though who think this is the end of the line, there is nothing more to find out...the 2000's people have sussed it all.

Never in a 1000 years future have we touched the surface of the creation.it is as Stephen Hawking say's these day's a matter of perception..

I think the main problem with the notion of God's existence is that humans are mortal and living in a mortal world. What goes up must come down, all good things come to an end, another part of the cycle - infinity and infinite existence are so rarely discussed or thought about that they may as well not exist.

In my eyes, it's completely conceivable that a God could have existed infinitely in the past and wil exist infinitely in the future. I think that whilst the implication of God's form ("So God created man in his own image") makes the religion more accessible, it also implies that God suffers the same frailties as humans.
 
Why did he have to be created..this would go on the theory that people invent things.Nothing is invented .all the things have always been there, people just learned to put them in the right place..How is he all powerful if he/she gives you the freedom to live your life as you chose....I would call that Love.

As for who created him.We are but specks on this earth , why do we have the audacity to think we know it all...I doubt humans will ever know...I do get pished off with people though who think this is the end of the line, there is nothing more to find out...the 2000's people have sussed it all.

Never in a 1000 years future have we touched the surface of the creation.it is as Stephen Hawking say's these day's a matter of perception..

Ah, but whenever atheists or people with no religious faith say that there is no god and the big bang explains creation and the universe, the Christians* say that something had to have created it and started off the process. By the same token as you put at the start of your post, why can't the universe have just 'been there'? Why did it have to be created?
 
John, my son's picked philosophy for one of his A levels, can I point him in your direction please at some point in the next two years?

God knows what it would look like on a reference page (oops) but SZ is actually a surprisingly good place to open up discussions which he may be asked to look in to for that. I know I've thrown the odd essay topic on here to try and broaden my perspectives on them
 
The one that gets me with this God bloke is that in The Old Testament he is a vindictive, "if I don't get my own way, I'll kill you all", nasty piece of work. He then has a kid, in The New Testament, and suddenly he is an all round good guy, who is love, and who is peace. Why is that?

Lol, who said he was a bloke.......who said he was anything.....but energy...vibrating at such speed as to cause effect...We are all only energy..we are but a simplistic race that has got rapped up in our own selfish attitudes to think we know it all....Once again I will say listen to your heart, that vibrates the most ..maybe there is some truth there.
 
Why did he have to be created..

I find that such a sell out answer. Everything was created, the Universe was created from a massive explosion and this is pretty much 99.99% scientific fact. If the forces that shaped out Universe were 0.00000001% out of balance it wouldn't exist and I honestly believe that there have been (and possibly still are) literally billions upon billions of Universes created, the vast majority of which were (or are) barren, lifeless places.

I think the enormity of that is far more mind-buggering than some "omni prescent" being waving a finger and bring life out of nothing.

Man creates God because the human brain just cannot accept the fact of how utterly unimportant we are and how one day, nothing will exist.
 
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The one that gets me with this God bloke is that in The Old Testament he is a vindictive, "if I don't get my own way, I'll kill you all", nasty piece of work. He then has a kid, in The New Testament, and suddenly he is an all round good guy, who is love, and who is peace. Why is that?

And doesn't fatherhood change a lot of men for the better? This goes back to what's been said earlier in this thread about the New Testament being the basis for modern day Christianity rather than the Old.
 
god doesnt exsist so no he didnt create anything
Now that's funny stuff. Many people think Christians or followers of any religion are mad because they are totally faith based. This obviously isn't true, but what you've just said above is very faith based indeed.

prove he does.........
Theres many books out there which point to compelling evidence. If you really want proof he does I can see which ones and direct you in that direction for you to make your own educated mind up.

Incidentally, why shouldn't God have been there before the Big Bang anyway?
Interesting thing about the big bang theory, people think it contradicts the Bible, but I'm sure I've read somewhere that the Bible talks about the big bang somewhere, it was on an internet site so maybe it was a little dodgey..
 
I think the main problem with the notion of God's existence is that humans are mortal and living in a mortal world. What goes up must come down, all good things come to an end, another part of the cycle - infinity and infinite existence are so rarely discussed or thought about that they may as well not exist.

In my eyes, it's completely conceivable that a God could have existed infinitely in the past and wil exist infinitely in the future. I think that whilst the implication of God's form ("So God created man in his own image") makes the religion more accessible, it also implies that God suffers the same frailties as humans.

I can see your point of view and of course we live a Mortal life...I feel most people are scared of thinking outside their "Comfort Zone" It is easy to go with masses in both directions..Stand in this queue please,don't dare to think for yourself, you have been told to follow this religion...God creating himself per-se in our image is bollix.thought wise maybe.

Now to you last question .if you were this God and wanted to see yourself in every cause and effect ....no better place that this world at the moment with all it's troubles.
 
Theres many books out there which point to compelling evidence. If you really want proof he does I can see which ones and direct you in that direction for you to make your own educated mind up.
.

Oh really? There is not one scrap of scientific evidence to suggest that there is a god that I know of and I challenge anyone to find me one that has a sound footing and not based on conjecture.
 
Err... don't think I stole them from anywhere in particular. Especially not c).

Maybe I am a fool, and maybe I'm arrogant. But you can't change what I believe or feel.

I'm sure we all believe that Southend United is the greatest football club ever to have existed, even if extrinsic evidence might suggest otherwise. Doesn't stop us believing it, though, does it?

Oh, and for the record, I'm avowedly not a creationist. As I said, much of the Old Testament is bunkum, to me. But, as a Protestant, it's the New Testament that counts - and whether you believe that Jesus (who we know lived, that's a fact) died on the cross (we also know that's a fact) to save us from our sins and was resurrected from the dead and ascended to heaven.

It's only that last bit that's the real leap of faith of Christianity. And I believe that happened. You may not, and that's up to you, really.

Matt

The quotes where stolen, not what you said...
 

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