national league

[Billericay Dickie]

One further reflection.

Many of us were pleased to welcome Barrow back into our ranks for the current season following their promotion from the National League. They, of course, had not been relegated automatically, but rather had failed to gain re-election following the usual vote at the end of the 1971/72 season.

How unlucky were they! The initial vote had them and Hereford tied at 26 votes each. The second vote saw Hereford victorious by 29-20. Hereford had had their famous FA Cup victory over Newcastle that season, and that was apparently one of the reasons subsequently given for the outcome, together with Barrow's geographical remoteness and the fact that the club's directors intended to install a speedway track at the stadium to try and boost their financial position.

It has only taken them 48 seasons to make it back!

 

[rigsby]

One further reflection.

Many of us were pleased to welcome Barrow back into our ranks for the current season following their promotion from the National League. They, of course, had not been relegated automatically, but rather had failed to gain re-election following the usual vote at the end of the 1971/72 season.

How unlucky were they! The initial vote had them and Hereford tied at 26 votes each. The second vote saw Hereford victorious by 29-20. Hereford had had their famous FA Cup victory over Newcastle that season, and that was apparently one of the reasons subsequently given for the outcome, together with Barrow's geographical remoteness and the fact that the club's directors intended to install a speedway track at the stadium to try and boost their financial position.

It has only taken them 48 seasons to make it back!

Good stuff BD.... Next question how many teams have spent longer in the lower 2 divisions than us in their total history (div 3 North and South included) ..... without going into non league since 1987

 

[Rayleigh boy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1357302784379539456

 

[Shrimper]

What about the NL sides that don't want to continue?....You cant force someone into debt and possibly make them fold because you want to continue.

Then they'd be smart to vote to have their own say and pass resolution 1.

 

[Mick]

Then they'd be smart to vote to have their own say and pass resolution 1.

No, they'd be better off doing the opposite. Then the generally pro continuing NL vote would be slightly diluted by the generally pro stopping NLN/NLS votes.

 

[Shrimper]

No, they'd be better off doing the opposite. Then the generally pro continuing NL vote would be slightly diluted by the generally pro stopping NLN/NLS votes.

Any club in the NLS/NLN should vote yes on resolution 1 regardless. If those 8 votes go through then only 16 would be needed in NL to vote it through

 

[Chris Powell's mate]

So, if the worst happens and we are indeed relegated to the National League, here is a somewhat sobering thought.

Since relegation and promotion between the Football League and the National League was increased to two up, two down for the 2002/03 season 33 clubs have lost their EFL status. Three (Barnet, Macclesfield and Torquay) have managed this twice.

Only 25% of these teams have managed to regain their Football League status in under five years:-

1 - Bristol Rovers, Carlisle, Cheltenham, Shrewsbury
2 - Barnet, Leyton Orient, Torquay
3 - Tranmere
4 - Oxford
5 - Exeter, Luton, Mansfield

This suggests roughly a 10% chance of bouncing back at the first attempt!

Of those who have taken more than five seasons to regain their membership less than 20% have managed it so far!

6 - Grimsby, Lincoln, Macclesfield
8 - York
9 - Cambridge

The following 19 clubs have so far failed to regain their status following their most recent demotion:-

Aldershot, Barnet, Boston, Bury, Chester, Chesterfield, Dagenham & Redbridge, Darlington, Halifax, Hartlepool, Kidderminster Harriers, Macclesfield, Notts County, Rushden & Diamonds, Stockport, Torquay, Wrexham, Yeovil, York

Something to think about!

A neat set of stats.
But if we're looking for optimism, how about Accy Stanley, who not only resurrected themselves from a milk ad, but are looking at League 1 play-offs with gates barely scraping 3,000 on a good day?
That would be a model worth looking at.

 

[Billericay Dickie]

Good stuff BD.... Next question how many teams have spent longer in the lower 2 divisions than us in their total history (div 3 North and South included) ..... without going into non league since 1987

Good question, Rigsby!

The third tier was created for the 1920/21 season and was essentially made up of the top division of the pre-WW1 Southern League, including ourselves. After one year a further division was added and the new divisions were named Divisions 3 North and South.

This is therefore our 101st year as a member of the Football League.

Due to WW2 the League was suspended for six seasons. I have included the 1939/40 season as it did begin, before being suspended after a few games had been played.

We, of course, have spent a total of seven seasons in the rarified atmosphere of the second tier. This therefore means we have been in the third/ fourth tiers for a total of 88 seasons since we became members.

I stand to be corrected on this, but I believe the answer to your question is 3! They are:-

Rochdale (95 seasons, the only 100% team)
Crewe Alexandra (93 seasons)
Northampton Town (91 seasons, though they did play in the top division)

Walsall (87 seasons) have, like ourselves, had seven seasons at a higher level, but they joined the League a year later than us!

One caveat to this is that two other clubs, Hartlepool (91 seasons) and Exeter (90 seasons) also have more than us, but have, of course, spent time in non-league since 1987! Interestingly, so would Northampton had they not been reprieved by the failure of Kidderminster's ground to come up to standard in 1994!

 

[Mick]

Any club in the NLS/NLN should vote yes on resolution 1 regardless. If those 8 votes go through then only 16 would be needed in NL to vote it through

Given the general acceptance that NL are more disposed towards continuing than NLS/NLN:

NLS/NLN wanting to continue should reject Vote 1 and then reject Votes 3 & 4
NLS/NLN wanting to stop should accept Votes 1, 3 and 4

NL wanting to continue should accept Vote 1 and then reject Votes 2 & 4
NL wanting to stop should reject Votes 1, then accept 2 and 4

 

[Billericay Dickie]

Good stuff BD.... Next question how many teams have spent longer in the lower 2 divisions than us in their total history (div 3 North and South included) ..... without going into non league since 1987

As I suspect your question alluded to our consistency at this level compared to other clubs, the following will no doubt be of further interest.

As you know, prior to the 1986/87 season teams finishing at the bottom of the League had to apply for re-election for the following season.

Looking at the clubs who have played more seasons than us at this level since WW1, including those who have spent time in non-league, the number of times they have had to apply for re-election proves interesting reading:-

Hartlepool - 14
Crewe - 10
Rochdale - 10
Exeter - 8
Walsall - 7
Northampton - 4
Southend - 2

I expect this goes some way to confirming what you may have suspected!

 

[rigsby]

As I suspect your question alluded to our consistency at this level compared to other clubs, the following will no doubt be of further interest.

As you know, prior to the 1986/87 season teams finishing at the bottom of the League had to apply for re-election for the following season.

Looking at the clubs who have played more seasons than us at this level since WW1, including those who have spent time in non-league, the number of times they have had to apply for re-election proves interesting reading:-

Hartlepool - 14
Crewe - 10
Rochdale - 10
Exeter - 8
Walsall - 7
Northampton - 4
Southend - 2

I expect this goes some way to confirming what you may have suspected!

Thanks BD, your partly right but I'm also thinking of the bigger picture of Relegation to the NL.

If you hang around L2 long enough you could argue its only a matter of time. The counter argument is always we are to big to end up in the bottom 2.

What we have done is follow the same path as others like Orient, Notts County, , Tranmere, BR and Luton. IF we get relegated its no good blaming the actual relegation season. Their problems and ours all start a few years before. Once you get in trouble financially you are in areal difficult position, in more ways that one.

Our fans fail to recognise that other teams see us as a must win and can win game. Without doubt when you play the teams at the bottom players look more confident and have the belief to attack and win. Just as we did in 2014/15.

 

[Streaky]

Sounds like the vote is tonight. This guy might be worth following for next few hours

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Thanks BD, your partly right but I'm also thinking of the bigger picture of Relegation to the NL.

If you hang around L2 long enough you could argue its only a matter of time. The counter argument is always we are to big to end up in the bottom 2.

What we have done is follow the same path as others like Orient, Notts County, , Tranmere, BR and Luton. IF we get relegated its no good blaming the actual relegation season. Their problems and ours all start a few years before. Once you get in trouble financially you are in areal difficult position, in more ways that one.

Our fans fail to recognise that other teams see us as a must win and can win game. Without doubt when you play the teams at the bottom players look more confident and have the belief to attack and win. Just as we did in 2014/15.

This x 1000.

This has been 5+ years in the making.

What's been so painful is seeing the impending crash coming all this time and watching it slowly unravel before my eyes yet no-one heeding my warnings. Football clubs are tankers. They don't turn immediately. I could see us plotting the wrong course which would lead us onto the rocks but was helpless to prevent it and just had to watch it in slow motion.


If we do get down, we need to stick with Molesley. We need to give a manager a time to rebuild. We need to go into pre-season with some continuity. We actually need a manager in situ who can start planning for the next season. One of the reasons clubs enter into death spirals is that when things - set in course years earlier - get out of hand supporters and then chairmen panic and they start cycling through managers, never giving an opportunity for the latest appointment to lay the foundations (or at least those foundations to set).

 

[Tommy2holes]

Sounds like the vote is tonight. This guy might be worth following for next few hours

Any idea to which way this will go?

 

[flangejackrabbit]

Looks like NL will vote to continue with it tight in terms of null/void for N/S.

 

[Mick]

Sounds like the vote is tonight. This guy might be worth following for next few hours

It's not tonight. Clubs have FOUR weeks to vote. If a conclusive vote is reached any time before end of February it will be announced then.

 

[Shrimper]

Sounds like the vote is tonight. This guy might be worth following for next few hours

Don't they have 28 days to vote?

 

[Mick]

Sounds like the vote is tonight. This guy might be worth following for next few hours

If your interest in non-league football extends beyond its short-term impact on Southend, then he's worth following for much longer. Excellent source of accurate non-league news.

I'd guess it probably doesn't ........ this year anyway.

 

[Holy Joe]

There were a number of fixtures played in the national league, plus north and south at the weekend and in the coming weeks. If safety is one of their concerns then why are these fixtures taking place?

It appears to me to be all about money - and the 28 days to votes is going to be used to put pressure on government to give grants rather than loans.

 

[Mick]

There were a number of fixtures played in the national league, plus north and south at the weekend and in the coming weeks. If safety is one of their concerns then why are these fixtures taking place?

It appears to me to be all about money - and the 28 days to votes is going to be used to put pressure on government to give grants rather than loans.

Safety is the reason often quoted (although some of clubs suddenly found it safe enough to play their Trophy games at the weekend!) but you're right. Money is the issue - well it's two issues. Many clubs feel that the National League board, under the recently honoured (God knows why) Brian Barwick, have been less than judicious in their perverse allocation of the grants already awarded for the first three months. Secondly there was a great deal of miscommunication between the clubs, the board and DCMS regarding the format of the next tranche of support. What was expected to be further grants, properly allocated now appear to be loans. Records of meetings not taken or gone astray and a lot of mistrust exists.