Maher going nowhere says unhappy Ron

[Medway Blue]

I think that the Owners of this forum have to be equally as careful......for example the Macca incident, they were totally right to close and delete it,

What Macca incident is this???

 

[Aberdeen Shrimper]

What Macca incident is this???

Nice try mate.....I am not risking the wrath of the Mods!!!!

 

[Medway Blue]

Nice try mate.....I am not risking the wrath of the Mods!!!!

No, seriously mate, I dont know! The thread must've been deleted before I saw it.

 

[Aberdeen Shrimper]

No, seriously mate, I dont know! The thread must've been deleted before I saw it.

I cant quite remember the story to be honest

 

[Bill Hogarth]

As much as I would like to, I don't have time to research whether 78% percent of editor approved column width articles are reactionary (Fact). But this does sound like a viable figure.

I'm not falling into any category thank you (Fact)

 

[Aberdeen Shrimper]

As much as I would like to, I don't have time to research whether 78% percent of editor approved column width articles are reactionary (Fact). But this does sound like a viable figure.

I'm not falling into any category thank you (Fact)

Well i am glad we got that sorted then

 

[Irate Ian]

Lost thread

Well i am glad we got that sorted then

The plot seems to have been lost here.

 

[Aberdeen Shrimper]

The plot seems to have been lost here.

I know mate.....think that it got lost a long time ago and that is with out the help of the Chief Thread Diverter!!!

 

[Bar na bas]

What do people want from the Echo....? It is never going to be the Washington Post.... It is never likely to break a story like Watergate.... None of the Echo's reporters are likely to emulate Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward.... And to be honest, Southend United is fairly small news in the world, isn't it?

But what do people want from Chris Phillips? By the way, I enjoy his coverage of the club in the Echo.... and his occasional appearances on co-commentary at away games.

One problem seems to be that some people want hard news... who is the mystical 20 goal a season forward we are going to sign, when is Fossets Farm going to become reality, etc..... But many others love the speculation, as is evident from this site.... witness so many threads about who we would like to sign, many of the names appearing being complete fantasy island stuff... What the team is going to be on Saturday, who will score, what the attendance will be, down to the exact number.....

But do we want our Chris to be a reporter or an investigative journalist? The former tends to cover news stories as they unfold, so that would include reports on matches, interviews with players and management regarding the latest stories and incidents, or hopes for the future, etc.... And the latter would perhaps delve a bit deeper... And may include breaking some news that the club does not necessarily want to come out at any given time....or not just yet......

Who do journalists serve? The people about whom they are reporting, or the people who want news, who buy the newspapers.... And I dare say that there are probably a few stories that Chris Phillips has had leads on, has received from sources, but which he cannot write about, perhaps as he would risk crossing journalistic boundaries (for example, a hypothetical story of a possible training ground bust-up - is that vague enough, mods? - which he has not witnessed, and may only have one person's view of an incident).

Or his editor may not back him sufficiently to publish a story.... Chris does not have the ultimate power at the paper, does he? I dare say that over the years, many an enthusiastic reporter has gone to his or her editor with a great story, full of hope of winning some journalistic award, only to be turned down by a scared editor, or the newspaper's lawyers....

Just in case anyone is interested, here is the National Union of Journalists Code of Conduct...

Members of the National Union of Journalists are expected to abide by the following professional principles:


A journalist

1. At all times upholds and defends the principle of media freedom, the right of freedom of expression and the right of the public to be informed

2. Strives to ensure that information disseminated is honestly conveyed, accurate and fair

3. Does her/his utmost to correct harmful inaccuracies

4. Differentiates between fact and opinion

5. Obtains material by honest, straightforward and open means, with the exception of investigations that are both overwhelmingly in the public interest and which involve evidence that cannot be obtained by straightforward means

6. Does nothing to intrude into anybody’s private life, grief or distress unless justified by overriding consideration of the public interest

7. Protects the identity of sources who supply information in confidence and material gathered in the course of her/his work

8. Resists, threats or any other inducements to influence, distort or suppress information

9. Takes no unfair personal advantage of information gained in the course of her/his duties before the information is public knowledge

10. Produces no material likely to lead to hatred or discrimination on the grounds of a person’s age, gender, race, colour, creed, legal status, disability, marital status, or sexual orientation

11. Does not by way of statement, voice or appearance endorse by advertisement any commercial product or service save for the promotion of her/his own work or of the medium by which she/he is employed

12. Avoids plagiarism.

The NUJ believes a journalist has the right to refuse an assignment or be identified as the author of editorial that would break the letter or spirit of the code. The NUJ will fully support any journalist disciplined for asserting her/his right to act according to the code.

The club presumably brief reporters, including BBC Essex, and allow access to players and management for interviews, and sometimes, Ron Martin comes out and gives supporters a lot of information... Journalists walk a difficult tightrope. They do not want to alienate the club, otherwise they would perhaps lose that access (wasn't it Alex Ferguson who would not speak to the BBC for years?). But at the same time, they have a role to report news, and sometimes, that news may show the club up in a critical way. It would certainly be very unwise for the Echo to print a story without checking facts. It would be irresponsible, and unfair to the subject of the report... But there may be stories which the paper consider it is in the local public's interest to know, which the club have not necessarily cleared first....​

What would you want?

(Oh, by the way, I am neither a journalist, nor indeed, Chris Phillips....)​

 

[Suffolk Shrimper In Dorset]

I delivered the Echo to an expectant public down Kents Hill Road North Sarf Benfleet 1975 to 1978 (inclusive) (16 1/2p per week).

I believe this gives me a useful insight in to the workings of the paper and an inside track on how they get their stories.

Well, it's like this.........................























































They make them up (alledgedly - Please Mr Echo do not sue, my paper round was the best job I've had to date and I've just spent the last of me tips).:D

 

[CC51DAS]

I think that Alf Smirk was a very hard act to follow

 

[TBV_Dan]

The thing is that they hear minor stories and they change it to make it a major thing to get people to read their papers. This is what has happened here, The echo has read that maher is out of favour at the moment, and wrote a story about him going out on loan until the end of the season. Maher is not out on loan and he won't go out on loan for the rest of the season.

 

[canveyshrimper]

The thing is that they hear minor stories and they change it to make it a major thing to get people to read their papers. This is what has happened here, The echo has read that maher is out of favour at the moment, and decided to make up a story about him going out on loan until the end of the season just to make people read their papers. Maher is not out on loan and he won't do for the rest of the season.

You know that for an absolute fact do you?

 

[TBV_Dan]

You know that for an fact do you?

Well...

The thing is that the get a minor story and they change it to make it a major one.

Many papers do this to get readers interest. That is how they advertise their papers... Fact.

Maher is not out on loan and he won't go on loan for the rest of the season.

Don't know that for a fact, but Ron Martin looks keen to keep him at the club. This was my opinion.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

This getting ridiculous now. Chris is employed by the Echo, not the club. He doesn't have to run anything by Ron, and anyhow, why should he? It's not as though Ron, Tilly or Brush have offered the paper any comment on Maher's exclusion from the team nor did they have the decency to acknowledge it.

If journalists had to have all of their stories approved before going to print, then the sports pages of papers would be very empty, and we'd all be very bored.

Someone suggested Chris may be punished by the Echo...............I've never known the paper to create such a fuss and I'm sure this isn't affecting sales.

So, when Maher finally signs for the Gills will you still be slagging off Chris and the paper, or will you appreciate that we have a local journo with his ear to the ground?

Spot on.

Incidentally, having chatted to my wife - an ex print journalist with stints for PA, the Telegraph, the Sunday Mirror, and other wire agencies - she says that a paper would be most unlikely to go to print on a story of this nature without at least one really good source for the story. If the club wanted to challenge the paper on this story, the Echo would have to make the story stand up - or it would have to issue a retraction / apology pretty sharpish.

My guess - and this is only my guess for now - is that Chris will have spoken to a source close to the player (most likely his agent), who will have given his spin on the story. The club has also got their own spin on the story - rather different from Chris's angle, but also a very long way short of a full denial (whither the direct quote from Cap'n Kev in the club's piece, for instance; whither the categorical denial that the player continues to be part of the club's plans, as opposed to making a statement that the club needs to give youth its head?).

But, unless there's a fulsome retraction in the Echo any time soon, you can be pretty sure that Chris's piece is anything but a work of fiction.

Matt

 

[Aberdeen Shrimper]

What do people want from the Echo....? It is never going to be the Washington Post.... It is never likely to break a story like Watergate.... None of the Echo's reporters are likely to emulate Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward.... And to be honest, Southend United is fairly small news in the world, isn't it?

But what do people want from Chris Phillips? By the way, I enjoy his coverage of the club in the Echo.... and his occasional appearances on co-commentary at away games.

One problem seems to be that some people want hard news... who is the mystical 20 goal a season forward we are going to sign, when is Fossets Farm going to become reality, etc..... But many others love the speculation, as is evident from this site.... witness so many threads about who we would like to sign, many of the names appearing being complete fantasy island stuff... What the team is going to be on Saturday, who will score, what the attendance will be, down to the exact number.....

But do we want our Chris to be a reporter or an investigative journalist? The former tends to cover news stories as they unfold, so that would include reports on matches, interviews with players and management regarding the latest stories and incidents, or hopes for the future, etc.... And the latter would perhaps delve a bit deeper... And may include breaking some news that the club does not necessarily want to come out at any given time....or not just yet......

Who do journalists serve? The people about whom they are reporting, or the people who want news, who buy the newspapers.... And I dare say that there are probably a few stories that Chris Phillips has had leads on, has received from sources, but which he cannot write about, perhaps as he would risk crossing journalistic boundaries (for example, a hypothetical story of a possible training ground bust-up - is that vague enough, mods? - which he has not witnessed, and may only have one person's view of an incident).

Or his editor may not back him sufficiently to publish a story.... Chris does not have the ultimate power at the paper, does he? I dare say that over the years, many an enthusiastic reporter has gone to his or her editor with a great story, full of hope of winning some journalistic award, only to be turned down by a scared editor, or the newspaper's lawyers....

Just in case anyone is interested, here is the National Union of Journalists Code of Conduct...

Members of the National Union of Journalists are expected to abide by the following professional principles:


A journalist

1. At all times upholds and defends the principle of media freedom, the right of freedom of expression and the right of the public to be informed

2. Strives to ensure that information disseminated is honestly conveyed, accurate and fair

3. Does her/his utmost to correct harmful inaccuracies

4. Differentiates between fact and opinion

5. Obtains material by honest, straightforward and open means, with the exception of investigations that are both overwhelmingly in the public interest and which involve evidence that cannot be obtained by straightforward means

6. Does nothing to intrude into anybody’s private life, grief or distress unless justified by overriding consideration of the public interest

7. Protects the identity of sources who supply information in confidence and material gathered in the course of her/his work

8. Resists, threats or any other inducements to influence, distort or suppress information

9. Takes no unfair personal advantage of information gained in the course of her/his duties before the information is public knowledge

10. Produces no material likely to lead to hatred or discrimination on the grounds of a person’s age, gender, race, colour, creed, legal status, disability, marital status, or sexual orientation

11. Does not by way of statement, voice or appearance endorse by advertisement any commercial product or service save for the promotion of her/his own work or of the medium by which she/he is employed

12. Avoids plagiarism.

The NUJ believes a journalist has the right to refuse an assignment or be identified as the author of editorial that would break the letter or spirit of the code. The NUJ will fully support any journalist disciplined for asserting her/his right to act according to the code.

The club presumably brief reporters, including BBC Essex, and allow access to players and management for interviews, and sometimes, Ron Martin comes out and gives supporters a lot of information... Journalists walk a difficult tightrope. They do not want to alienate the club, otherwise they would perhaps lose that access (wasn't it Alex Ferguson who would not speak to the BBC for years?). But at the same time, they have a role to report news, and sometimes, that news may show the club up in a critical way. It would certainly be very unwise for the Echo to print a story without checking facts. It would be irresponsible, and unfair to the subject of the report... But there may be stories which the paper consider it is in the local public's interest to know, which the club have not necessarily cleared first....​

What would you want?

(Oh, by the way, I am neither a journalist, nor indeed, Chris Phillips....)​

An interesting read and well put together....can i just pick up on a couple of points. I don’t want to dwell on this any more as most folk will be getting fed up to the back teeth of it now, although they don’t have to read the thread anymore if they don’t want to......but

All i want to establish is, was what Chris Phillips said about KM true?

The Headline was that on Monday the 5th March 2008 Kevin Maher would be joining Gillingham....was this correct or not?

If he did join them on Monday i will hold my hands up to Mr Phillips and eat humble pie. If he did not join them then i am afraid that as you have gratefully posted the code of conduct for a journalist then i will have to pick up on a couple of the rules.

Rule 2. Strives to ensure that information disseminated is honestly conveyed, accurate and fair Was it accurate?

Rule 4. Differentiates between fact and opinion Was it fact or is KM currently still a Southend United Player?

If these are the cods of conduct which i have no reason to doubt you then he has come very close to or has in fact broken rule 2 and rule 4.

One last point is that your comment....And to be honest, Southend United is fairly small news in the world, isn't it? is in fact probably true to the reader…..or is it?? although I would imagine the club would not quite see it like that, which is why they felt the need to make the statement they did and publish comments like Kevin Maher will today join Gillingham on loan until the end of the season IS NOT TRUE.....Mr Phillips even got the Chairman saying it was untrue....The chairman even went on to say how unsettling it is for the club and the fans and wanted to dispel the rumours.

Good Work Chris!!!!

 

[Einstein]

An interesting read and well put together....can i just pick up on a couple of points. I don’t want to dwell on this any more as most folk will be getting fed up to the back teeth of it now

No-one else is actually dwelling on the "facts" or not apart from you!

 

[Aberdeen Shrimper]

No-one else is actually dwelling on the "facts" or not apart from you!

Very possibly....but i like a really good debate and it is a very important story for the club.....if i have an opinion about the story it is ok to debate it if someone else wants to as well?

If folk are bored with it, they are not forced to read the thread are they?

I don’t seem to be talking to myself either do I? If you read the thread i have been replying to other posters who seem to want to get there opinion across as well....which is what this is all about isn’t it??

I really liked the reply from Bar Na Bas as it was a good post and very well put together.....which is why i wanted to reply to it.

Is there a problem with that??

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

This is what has happened here, The echo has read that maher is out of favour at the moment, and decided to make up a story about him going out on loan until the end of the season just to make people read their papers.

Hi Supershrimper,

I don't want to appear overly dismissive, but what you've said above is almost certainly absolute twaddle.

No paper will knowingly run a completely unattributed story. A paper is not intended to be a work of fiction - it is intended to either report news (i.e. a story which has not yet broken, or which is on the point of breaking) or to provide comment. Incidentally, in an increasingly digital age, papers will have to focus more on the latter than the former - the main sources of which will be the internet, radio and 24-hour News Channels.

The accuracy of the story will then always depend on the reliability of the source. Some papers - notably those backed with the financial and legal muscle of Mr. Murdoch - will run a story based on one not-so-strong source, and then (if need be) face the consequences in terms of pay-outs or retractions if the source proves to be dodgy.

On the rare occasions on which other nationals run stories on unreliable sources, there's normally a major fall-out - look at Piers Morgan being forced to resign from the helm of the Mirror following the fake abuse pictures being splashed in their paper.

At the other end of the spectrum is Auntie Beeb, who generally won't run a story (post Gilligan-gate) without two independent and verifiable sources.

I suspect that the Echo and Chris Phillips - if they're part of one of the big regional stables (Trinity Mirror, Emap, Associated), will fall in the middle category - in other words, editorial rules will dictate that the bigger the story, the stronger the source needs to be.

In the print copy, I think this Maher story was the back-page splash (although someone might be able to confirm this). That being so, I would be gobsmacked to learn that Chris had run the piece without having one really good source - in all likelihood, Maher's agent.

Don't forget, in any discussion concerning Maher, SUFC and his agent are effectively on "opposite sides" - and so they will invariably have very different opinions on one set of facts.

Final thought for the day: certain philosophers (notably Descartes, George Berkeley) have put up as a topic of debate the notion that there are very few entirely objective facts. For instance, we say that the sky is blue - but why? How do we know that that is blue? How do we know it's the sky?

That may seem like an absurd starting point - but if you break something down, you can very quickly see how a discussion over the weekend as to Maher's future at SUFC provides two very different views of what was discussed, and what the implications of that discussion were. Neither can be said to be objectively true or untrue - instead, they are simply two different subjective versions of the same set of discussions, both of which have an element of truth in them.

After all, if everything was always objectively true and could always be definitively proved as being so, then no one would go to court and I would be out of a job.

:rolleyes:

Matt

 

[Cricko]

Ahhhhhhhhh Good to see Matt back to his one-line responses......:hilarious: